McCain: "I Don't Know" If Mormons Are Christians
John McCain's remarks about America being founded in the Constitution as a Christian nation have opened him up to getting a lot more questions about his religion — and the religions of other candidates.
At a meeting with the Spartanburg Herald-Journal editorial board, McCain was asked whether Mormons are Christians — a serious issue with many evangelicals, and a potential pitfall for Mitt Romney.
"I don't know. I respect their faith. I've never frankly looked at the Mormon religion. I've known a lot of Mormons who are wonderful people," McCain said. "More importantly, I don't think it should be held against Gov. Romney. The fact that he's a Mormon should not be a factor in people's judgment."
Comments (141)
Dave J. wrote on October 3, 2007 4:36 PM:Everything McCain says about religion is comedy gold because from birth-2006 the guy didn't pay the slightest attention to religion. Now that he's got to court the fundies, it's all God, all the time, even though he lacks the basic frame of reference. It's kind of like listening my mom try to talk about rap music.
allsburg wrote on October 3, 2007 4:42 PM:Heck, I don't even know if Mormons are Christians. Are Catholics Christians? What is a Christian? It seems to depend a lot upon who you ask.
I'll tell you this, though: Mormons are every bit as truly, mind-numbingly insane as Christians. Maybe even more so. Christians believe a lot of absurd things, but this may be partially forgiven because the absurd things happened so long ago that it really defies human comprehension. Mormons, on the other hand, believe a number of very absurd things that happened only a century and a half ago.
So go ahead and accuse me of being anti-Mormon. But believe me, where religion and absurd beliefs are concerned, I'm equal-opportunity all the way.
neil wrote on October 3, 2007 4:43 PM:McCain doesn't know what a Christian is, but he knows what he likes.
james wrote on October 3, 2007 4:44 PM:Seeing as Catholics were the first Christians and everyone else were the ones that went batshit insane, I think we can safely call the Catholics Christian.
P J Evans wrote on October 3, 2007 4:51 PM:james said
Seeing as Catholics were the first Christians and everyone else were the ones that went batshit insane, I think we can safely call the Catholics Christian.
James, you must be talking about the Eastern Orthodox, who have been around a bit longer than the people in Rome.
Mormons are 'the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints', so they're at least nominally Christian, and the ones I know aren't any less so than the Southern Baptists. (I have other reasons not to vote for Romney, or for McCain.)
dkm wrote on October 3, 2007 4:52 PM:Consider this. The Mormons do not consider themselves to be either Protestant or Catholic, so they must be some sort of Third Way.
As for safely calling Catholics Christians, I was married to a devout Irish Catholic for too long and I can assure you that at least some branches of the Catholic Church are not Christian. The Magdalene Sisters were not some sort of aberrant offshoot. They were mainstream Irish Catholic.
slb wrote on October 3, 2007 4:52 PM:Actually, the LDS church is not Christian. Some of their basic tenets are in opposition to basic tenets of Christianity. See for example http://www.irr.org/mit/Is-Mormonism-Christian.html
That doesn't mean one is good and the other bad, it just means that many/most orthodox Christian institutions do not consider the LDS church to be one of them.
pacc wrote on October 3, 2007 4:53 PM:McCain looks like such a toad, sidling up to the jesus freaks. That's about all the repugnics will have left by the time election day rolls around.
Teresa wrote on October 3, 2007 4:55 PM:I sent this in earlier to TPM. Saw it in my local paper this afternoon and knew it was perfect for here. Ah, what a slippery slope of weasliness McCain is on....
Dennis wrote on October 3, 2007 4:55 PM:As I recall the story, the first christians (the disciples, apostles, etc) were Jews.
Saint Augustine wrote on October 3, 2007 4:58 PM:I guess Christianity and pornography are alike in some ways. There are acceptable levels of both, like soft porm and Lutherns. From there they both branch off to extremes that are unacceptabe to most of the perverts that practice less offensive rituals.
To james @ 4:44:
The first Christians were Jews.
Mick Stockinger wrote on October 3, 2007 4:59 PM:Its a Sunni-Shiite thing. No one seriously questions whether the Shia are Muslims, and its just silly to wonder whether the Mormon church, whose formal name is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, is Christian.
McCain isn't doing himself any favors sitting on the fence on a subject like this. While a few Evangelical extremists have a serious hate-on for the Mormons, its nothing compared with the anti-Christian bigotry of the left-wing, some of which is on display here. If anyone is going to hold Romney's religion against him, it will be far-left Democrats.
Ironically, Romney's main problem does have a religious component. As a Mormon, he never developed a feel for the revivalist speechifying that the modern political classes have adapted from their Protestant preacher forebears. He needs to be less Alan Greenspan and more Jesse Jackson.
bob voso wrote on October 3, 2007 5:00 PM:Same Same they all believe in some magical sky wizard on high. Listening to these guys spout how they are guided by a hairy thunderer Cosmic Muffin would sound so so crazy if we weren't so numbed to it.
Steve wrote on October 3, 2007 5:04 PM:"Jesus was a Jew, but only on his mother's side." --Archie Bunker
aleks wrote on October 3, 2007 5:10 PM:Isn't that something McCain should look into? What if it's Romney v. one of the Protestant Democrats? If Mormons aren't Christians, his Christians Only policy towards presidents should make him vote for the Dem.
"I don't think it should be held against Gov. Romney. The fact that he's a Mormon should not be a factor in people's judgment." Didn't Nixon say that about Kennedy's Catholicism? Over and over, just in case anyone didn't know Kennedy was Catholic? Same deal here probably.
r€nato wrote on October 3, 2007 5:10 PM:Gee, quite a few of McCain's constituents are LDS, maybe he could go over to Mesa or Glendale or Safford and have a chat with these folks who have probably voted for him repeatedly over the years.
Oh, that's right, McCain only cares about his constituents every sixth November.
Imelda Blahnik wrote on October 3, 2007 5:16 PM:....soft porn and Lutherans
*snort*
Makes me think of those analogies from the SAT: gonzo is to fundies as
(a) soft porn is to Mormons
(b) obscenity is to Scientologists
(c) hardcore is to softcore or
(d) soft porn is to Lutherans
I'm glad McCain and others are spending so much time opining on other people's religious beliefs.
I'd hate to see them waste time discussing resolving the Iraq War, stabilizing the free-falling mortgage market, health care, Iran, or the deficit.
Good work, guys.
PeteN wrote on October 3, 2007 5:23 PM:I don't know if McCain is a Christian. But I know that he's playing one on TV.
uncle toby wrote on October 3, 2007 5:27 PM:As I understand it, Mormons consider themselves Christian. Out of politeness or respectfulness, one could recognize the Mormons' own self-identification.
However, from a purely objective theological standpoint, their doctrines are so far divorced from the theology of the Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant churches, it is very much in question whether they can be termed "Christian". As an example, a convert to Catholicism who has previously been baptized is not re-baptized by the Church unless it was a Mormon baptism.
hoppy wrote on October 3, 2007 5:28 PM:I'm writing my Senator to request that a hearing be held to gather the facts about this issue. It isn't good public policy to make important decisions, such as about religion, without determining the facts first. Maybe the Senate should subpoena the pertinent documents before they get altered?
spencers mom wrote on October 3, 2007 5:32 PM:The point isn't so much whether McCain considers Mormons/LDS to be Christian, the point is that the Fundies do NOT now and never will think of them as Christian.
According to the hard-core Born Agains, Mormons are a CULT, plain and simple, and they will NOT show up on election day to cast a vote for a president who will have ties to this very wealthy religion.
Jeremy wrote on October 3, 2007 5:41 PM:"We believe in the ultimate deification of man."
--Robert L. Millet, dean of Religious Education at Brigham Young
Mormons defend their view that they can literally become deities as "Christian" by claiming that early Christian cults/sects believed the same. Another perspective is that early Christian cults/sects believed all kinds of crazy stuff and that "Christianity" proper should be understood as the tradition arising from the First Council of Nicea. Really, there's no Platonic form of "Christianity", just a bunch of more or less connected belief systems bearing family resemblance to one another and in some way holding that it is crucial for God to have sacrificed himself to himself to save us from him.
Teresa wrote on October 3, 2007 5:43 PM:I live amongst the hard core fundies in South Carolina and they consider Mormons as being akin to Satan worshippers. Romney has been pouring tons of money down here in TV and print ads and he is going nowhere.
Brad wrote on October 3, 2007 5:44 PM:Spencer's Mom has the political facts right - regardless of whatever magic is being discussed, the Fundies will only support a candidate who believes in their particular flavor of magic. And that is the only part that matters for McCain and the rest of the GOP crowd.
I almost feel bad for McCain, he is so clearly out of his element.
It's a bit like a contest between imaginary friends. There's no real action, just commentary - kinda like sports would be if all we had were announcers and no actual teams.
Ben Bartlett wrote on October 3, 2007 5:45 PM:I don't know if I consider Mormons Christians either, strictly speaking. Their theology is pretty distinct from the rest of Christianity. Someone above compared the difference to Sunni and Shiite, but that divide is much closer (more like Catholics & Protestants) than is the divide between Christians and Mormons.
But ultimately, it's a question for religious scholars. If the Mormons want to call themselves Christians, more power to them. It's no skin off of my teeth.
moondancer wrote on October 3, 2007 5:49 PM:Sad. Because of how good he was in 2000, I thought him to be formidable. Combination of wrong side of christofascists and seven years of aging seems to have left him gasping for air.
numi wrote on October 3, 2007 5:52 PM:I'm so glad I live in a country that gaurantees its citizens can believe in any damn fool thing they want to. Or not.
As long as the Republicanites keep arguing over which flavor of invisible sky fairy is the 'right' one, rest assured their electoral chances in '08 will continue fading into insignificance. And deservedly so.
Besides, anyone can tell you that Reformed Druid is the only true religion. We worship ornamental shrubs instead of trees. And I don't mean W.
Mormons are more like a sucessful cult. But then, most pagans would have said that about Christians 2,000 years ago.
What bothers me about Romney isn't what he believes, but whether he really believes anything. Barney Frank said it best: “The real Romney is clearly an extraordinarily ambitious man with no perceivable political principle whatsoever. He is the most intellectually dishonest human being in the history of politics.”
How much of Romney's intellectual dishonesty is the result of being part of a religion that claims Joseph Smith used a magical seer stone to dictate the Book of Mormon from a hat?
Chesire111 wrote on October 3, 2007 6:12 PM:P J Evans said:
"James, you must be talking about the Eastern Orthodox, who have been around a bit longer than the people in Rome."
Not so, until the iconoclastic controversy produced the first great schism within the Christian world, the Latin and Greek Churches were one and the same, so it's kind of silly to argue that which of the two is older. Both Churches are and recognize each other to be apostolic, as opposed to the Protestant churches which, though Christian, do not derive authority from direct apostolic succession.
Mitt Romney seems to be snugly in the tradition of his faith when it comes to reversing his beliefs that conflict with contemporary political standards. In the 1960s when the Church of LDS found itself outside the currents of the civil rights movement, their elders spent days in prayer and lo, it was revealed to them that maybe black people should be able to enjoy full Mormon status, whatever Joseph Smith and Brigham Young had said. Sounds a lot like what he went through when reconsidering his position on stem cell research and God threw in a flip flop on abortion as well. Look, Mormons don't have to be terrible people--Harry Reid is one, too. But Romney attended the same B-school that produced Jeffrey Skilling and George W. Bush. Maybe that explains it.
Dqavid Lloyd-Jones wrote on October 3, 2007 6:21 PM:.
One of the greatest love affairs of my life was the four days I spent with Victoria Dern, whose grandfather (the inventor of the Dern foam method of getting silver out of dross) was Governor of Utah in the twenties.
He then went on to be FDR's Secretary of War -- remember when we were honest enough to talk about war rather than defense? -- from 1932 to 1934.
When we broke up she said "David, there is a reality out there; you're trying to find it and I'm trying to lose it."
Thank you, Victoria.
Mormons, I love your insight.
.
"I guess Christianity and pornography are alike in some ways. There are acceptable levels of both, like soft porm and Lutherns. From there they both branch off to extremes that are unacceptabe to most of the perverts that practice less offensive rituals.
To james @ 4:44:
The first Christians were Jews."
Well, isn't that what CS Lewis says Satan thinks about religion in general?
"Doesn't matter which extreme you pick, as long as you pick the extreme."
In my opinion a discussion of a candidates 'religion' or 'non-religion' is an exercise in futility. What the hell does it matter to what kind of president he/she would make? Would he/she have to check with a Pope or Archbishop before making decisions? This President scares the hell out of me everytime he mentions Jesus or God. He is worse than Pat Robertson and Oral Roberts in getting his answers from God. If the results are because of his answers from God, I'm glad I don't have one.
MillionthMonkey wrote on October 3, 2007 6:38 PM:McCain is right; Mormons themselves don't consider themselves Christians as a matter of self-identification.
FWIW I am an atheist myself so I couldn't care less. They look like Christians to me.
Anonymous wrote on October 3, 2007 6:48 PM:"In the 1960s when the Church of LDS found itself outside the currents of the civil rights movement, their elders spent days in prayer and lo, it was revealed to them that maybe black people should be able to enjoy full Mormon status, whatever Joseph Smith and Brigham Young had said."
It was the same with polygamy. When Utah wanted to become a state, they tossed it overboard and made it illegal.
Ray wrote on October 3, 2007 6:54 PM:As followers of Jesus, Christians believe in turning the other cheek when attacked.
Based on the lack of popular support for turning the other cheek in the wake of 9/11, I conclude that there are very few Christians in American.
Kristen wrote on October 3, 2007 6:59 PM:It's very interesting reading everyone's comments. I am a Mormon, but I don't think that religion should be the basis of whether a person should be president or not. Personally, I won't vote for Mitt Romney because he has flip-flopped on several issues over his political life. I don't know where he really stands on any of the issues.
Also the website given above: http://www.irr.org/mit/Is-Mormonism-Christian.html is actually an anti-Mormon site. If you want to know about Mormons go to www.lds.org.
powwow500 wrote on October 3, 2007 7:01 PM:As Kinky Friedman sings it...
they don't make Jews like Jesus anymore.
Tim Kane wrote on October 3, 2007 7:07 PM:The Mormons would be the only major Christian sect, if they are Christian, that do not embrace the tenants of the Nicean Creed - which, among other things, emphasize a trinity god-head.
If you define the Nicean creed as Christianity, then the Mormons aren't Christian.
You know even the Muslims venerate Jesus. Technically speaking, if they wanted to, they could call themselves Christians too, I suppose, depending on how lose of a term you use.
Brigham Travolta wrote on October 3, 2007 7:09 PM:Mormonism = Scientology + 100 years
Dave Huntsman wrote on October 3, 2007 7:35 PM:The real John McCain would have answered questions like this during a campaign thusly, showing leadership:
"You're asking me a religous question; and, by law and by our morals in America, religion is not supposed to be a deciding factor in public service, one way or another. Even I have politically succumbed to talking about it as part of campaigning; but not anymore. Anyone who is President is required to defend the Constitution; which includes the part that says there is no religious test for public office. From now on, whether it hurts me or not politically, I will not, in the context of campaigning or governance, talk about religous preferences. It was wrong; I've been wrong to do it in the past; and it is in the context of governance, it is illegal. That's that."
I think John would be surprised how many grateful millions of Americans would cheer him the next day.
steve talbert wrote on October 3, 2007 7:45 PM:It really is so unfortunate and sad that such effort is put into debating who has the 'best' superstition. I wonder how much worse walking under a ladder is from breaking a mirror. If I stepped on your mother's back, would it make it crack???!?
Thethinredline wrote on October 3, 2007 8:08 PM:Forgive me for potentially stating obvious but isn't it called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints? They accept Jesus as their saviour, so doesn't that make them Christians per defininition even if they dont fall within the boundries of the Catholic, Protestant or Orthodox branches.
But in these times i will always pull out my favorite Baruch Spinoza quote:
"I have often wondered, that persons who make a boast of professing the Christian religion, namely, love, joy, peace, temperance, and charity to all men, should quarrel with such rancorous animosity, and display daily towards one another such bitter hatred, that this, rather than the virtues they claim, is the readiest criterion of their faith."
VictorLaszlo wrote on October 3, 2007 8:13 PM:If one claims to be a Christian, he is a Christian.
No one can presume to tell another about the nature of his religion.
johnd wrote on October 3, 2007 8:27 PM:Evangelicals believe Mormons, Catholics, Mehtodists, Presbeterians, Lutherans, Congregationalists etc. can all be "saved", meaning in addition to even a nearly life long adherance to an established Christian faith, they don't inherit the "Kingdom of Heaven", "Paradise" or "Eternal Salvation" unless they "accept Jesus Christ as their personal saviour."
In other words no, they don't think many of the mainstream Christian faiths are Christian. McCain saying "I don't know" was acceptable code for "no" to all the Jesus crowd who believe only "bible based" churches are Christian.
Dan wrote on October 3, 2007 8:31 PM:I am a Mormon and believe wholeheartedly in Jesus Christ, like all my fellow Mormons. Why should a non-Mormon judge how much I believe in Christ?
Shouldn't Jesus Christ be the only Judge of how much we believe in Christ?
john campion wrote on October 3, 2007 8:34 PM:Mormon's believe that each male can become through a process of re-incarnation an actual godhead. His wife (ves) can do so only through reflection (like a satelite moon). The male will then govern his own planet. Jesus Christ went through something just like this. No more, no less.
That is no kidding. When the Christian right discovers this they will shit a brick and throw it at the governor.
Capn Gravy wrote on October 3, 2007 8:36 PM:I thought this bore repeating... a concise description of the Christian belief.
From Jeremy at 5:41PM
"Christianity... in some way hold(s) that it is crucial for God to have sacrificed himself to himself to save us from him."
McCain doesn't even know the constitution of the nation he wants to president of. Who is he to speak of religion? And why is the newspaper even asking the question? What in hell does the question have to do with anything remotely relevant to his qualifications or policy?
TR wrote on October 3, 2007 9:00 PM:I wonder how much time the 2000 John McCain would have spent discussing comparative theology, and whether or not it would qualify as Straight Talk. Something tells me not very much.
But then, there is a lot different now about John McCain, to the nation's great misfortune.
Saint Augustine wrote on October 3, 2007 9:11 PM:McCain is wrong in thinking that this country was founded on Christian principles.
The nation's oldest city, St. Augustine, was founded in 1565 by Spaniard Pedro Menendez. It was a military outpost. All the soldiers were Catholic.
In 1608, Jamestown was founded by Londoners escaping the horrid living conditions. Due to the harshness of colonial life willing settlers became scarce and many of the people that followed were forced to do so.
The Mayflower brought a group of people over in 1620 who were considered cultists by the church in England. At least they didn't drink kool-aid when the got here.
The Maryland Colony, established in 1634, specifically giving freedom of religion to it's Catholic settlers.
The mantra that so many of our Founding Fathers were seminary educated did not make them religious. For many years schooling was provide by ministers who had studied in classical programs in Europe. Jefferson studied under ministers, but believed in the seperation of church and state.
MonkeyBoy wrote on October 3, 2007 9:24 PM:unfortunately "Christian" can mean many things.
At the least it means someone who thinks Jesus Christ is somewhat to very supernatural or (even less) just an admirable person. The first part describes most self-professed Christians, Mormons, and Muslims.
At the most it can be a code-word for "just-a-Christian and nothing more" such as belonging to a particular denomination. The very religious of this sort of "Christian" believe in getting their religion straight from reading the Bible (because the truth is there and it is obvious to anybody who can read). If they belong to a church it is a non-denominational church (Most Mega-Churches are non-denominational such as Haggard's New Life Church). They also can be churchless and may do things like gather friends to read the Bible together. Some regard denominations (and sometimes even churches) as too worldly and bent on misinterpreting the Bible.
Such "plain Christians" form one pole of what it means to be a "Christian". They can easily believe that any other version of belief is caused by Satan - e.g. the Pope is the Anti-Christ or Mormons are demon worshipers.
When Dobson says that some politician is "not Christian (enough)" he is speaking to these "plain Christians" but he also words things so as to appeal to the more fundamentalist denominations.
MarkS wrote on October 3, 2007 9:47 PM:What's the difference between a cult and a religion? One hundred years.
George E. Lowe wrote on October 3, 2007 10:02 PM:Hi, Three cheers for Senator McCain's successful CRUSADE to bring the latent RELIGIOUS BELIEFS/FAITH/DOCTRINE of all 2008 Presidential candidates--front & center--for whatever his true reasons are.
I worked, in the Pentagon(1960-61), with Senator McCain's father, ADMIRAL JOHN "GOD-DAM"/"JUNIOR" McCain & there was NEVER a finer/stronger believer in our SECULAR DEMOCRATIC CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC OF LAWS--NOT THE BIBLICAL LAW & THE CHRISTIAN FLAG.
Admiral McCain was worried then about THE MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX & made sure IKE included it in his Farwell Address of 17 Jan. 1961. If IKE & Admirals McCain & CNO Burke were alive today they would warn AMERICA about the Military-Industrial-RELIGIOUS Complex.
Senator McCain is dead wrong now: THE USA/AMERICA is NOT & NEVER was a CHRISTIAN NATION--any more than Mormons are. Yes, there was a Christian Commonweal--A PURITAN THEOCRACY in MASS.-BAY COLONY in the 17th Century--but that was long gone before our Founding Fathers--many DEISTS- revolted against King George III & the Established English Anglican Church in 1776.
WHY IF the USA/AMERICA is a "CHRISTIAN NATION" is there NO mention of JESUS CHRIST /CHRISTIAN/CHRISTIANITY in ANY of our FOUNDING DOCUMENTS: The Declaration of Independence/The U.S. Consititution , or any State Constitutions?
Let's have much more REAL debate about religion not less in the 2008 Election. Two stealth, Fundie born-again Christians(Ronald W.REAGAN & George W.Bush) are two too many for the very survival of our SECULAR Democratic Republic. Very worried in Nova Scotia, George E. Lowe
There are about 200 people on Earth who are real Christians. Everyone else is just going through the motions.
Bruce wrote on October 3, 2007 11:14 PM:Arizona has one of the largest LDS communities proportionally in the world; it is a hard-core constituent of the so-called "Jello Belt" with almost 500 Mormon churches and about 5.5% of the population is Mormon. Are we to believe that this Republican never got to know probably the staunchest Republican constituency in his state?
For McCain - long-time state-wide office holder - in his 60s to claim he has never studied at all the religious views of one of the largest minorities in his state is preposterous. Not only is this misleading by McCain, it's not even subtle.
Threegoal wrote on October 3, 2007 11:34 PM:Several thoughts. First, the injection of various degrees of religious litmus tests into the presidential candidate selection process on the Republican side is simply odious. Thanks to Falwell, Robertson, Dobson and their ilk for that sad situation.
Second, on the are Mormons Christians question, there is a mixture of thoughtful, snarky and certain other comments that at time get off topic.
It seems to me that Mormons want to be considered Christians. I would think that the combination of proxy ancestor baptism for a type of retroactive salvation (hence the fervent interest in genealogy) and the notion that an individual can become God of his own world in the afterlife together make the LDS faith seem way too weird for most Christians, whether Protestant, Roman Catholic, or Orthodox, to be classified as Christian. While those faiths have their big differences, their commonalities make them seem a lot more similar to each other than Mormonism.
I think McCain should have either declined to answer the question as being irrelevant to the office he seeks, or he should have at least left it for theologians to debate. But he already started digging the religion hole and still has the shovel in his hand, and apparently he is dumb enough to keep digging.
Chuck Butcher wrote on October 4, 2007 1:47 AM:It seems as though if a sect wants to call itself Christian that's about all it takes. Please, it certainly does not mean preaching and living the direct quotes of Christ. Since I belong to no recognizable sect or other, consider this equally applied to the other ones.
CaptainVideo wrote on October 4, 2007 2:37 AM:It looks like the Republican Presidential campaign is deteriorating into a debate over the fine points of theology. The more they get diverted from addressing the issues facing the country into theological disputes the better. They can leave offering solutions for the nation's problems to the Democrats.
Jeremy Jensen wrote on October 4, 2007 3:52 AM:"Mormon's believe that each male can become through a process of re-incarnation an actual godhead."
No, not reincarnation. Simply obeying the commandments of God in this life and repenting of your shortcomings through the Atonement of Christ.
"His wife (ves) can do so only through reflection (like a satelite moon)."
Not true. She becomes a goddess just like the man becomes a god. There's no difference between the sexes in the way this happens.
"That is no kidding."
You may not be kidding, but you were wrong about most of the details you presented.
mormons are mormons. since when did christianity become a general class of religion.
David wrote on October 4, 2007 6:01 AM:This seems a bit unfair. In this case, the "I don't know" was a throwaway avoidance of the question, which was a stupid one to begin with, irrelevant to anything. McCain has enough weaknesses as a candidate, but this silly "piling on" feels unworthy...
comfortably numb wrote on October 4, 2007 7:00 AM:Someone needs to ask McCain if Jesus was a Christian
Polonius19 wrote on October 4, 2007 7:12 AM:I don't think this conversation belongs in the context of political candidacy. Whatever the Bible thumpers want to believe, the constitution is godless.
But having said that, I don't know how the LDS church could be christian. They believe the Christ is an alien who got this planet to look after through good works in his mortal life on his planet of origin and that if they're good mormons and do enough good works on this planet, they'll get their own to look after once they ascend.
Molly wrote on October 4, 2007 7:37 AM:I lived in SC for a couple of years and I had three fatal strikes against me; liberal, yankee and Mormon.
But for McCain to slam Mormons like he's Nixon going after Kennedy is classic sleazeball political behavior that South Carolina is famous for.
I hope the Mormons in AZ find out McCain panders to the crackers in SC to the point he's willing to slam a major part of his republican state.
WE CLAIM THE PRIVELEGE OF WORSHIPPING ALMIGHTY GOD ACCORDING TO THE DICATATES OF OUR OWN CONSCIENCE AND ALLOW ALL MEN THE SAME PRIVELEGE LET THEM WORSHIP HOW WHERE OR WHAT THEY MAY
Hallelujah! McCain has every right to be skeptical. As a former Mormon, I can attest that there's a great deal more to LDS theology than what even most rank-and-file members realize. It's a cult, and a very powerful and dangerous one. Here's just one example.
The Mountain Meadows massacre didn't happen in a vacuum. The same twisted interpretation of what constitutes blood atonement that led to this bloodbath is why states with large LDS populations use firing squads to execute death row inmates. Utah used firing squads until three years ago! Idaho and Nevada still allow it, if I remember correctly.
There's much more to Mormonism than the PR campaigns and most mainstream Christian denominations acknowledge those schisms. As far as Arizona politics goes, he's probably well aware of possible constituent backlash. Certain counties in Arizona, Nevada, Idaho, and Utah are already essentially theocracies. What else is new?
Peter Gaffney wrote on October 4, 2007 7:50 AM:What a non-story. McCain didn't bring up the subject of Mormonism, and in answer to the question he simply said he didn't know anything about it and it shouldn't be a factor in the election. Whether or not Mormonism is Christian is a matter of definition. Theologians disagress, so it's hardly a revelation of ignorance on McCain's part that he says he doesn't know. ["Disagress"? I meant "disagree," of course, but shouldn't "disagress" be a word? Starting out to disagree and then digressing is exactly what I'm doing right now.]
McCain says too many wacky things to waste time on a straightforward answer.
vix wrote on October 4, 2007 7:52 AM:Having been raised a Catholic in Utah during the 60's thru the 80's I have some very good insight on Mormons. It's all true what is said about them both good and bad. When you need something done, these people are as good as any at getting it done. They rally around community and each other and are very admirable. However, they do tend to be very narrow minded, sometimes bigoted and unforgiving towards minorities of any sex, color or religion. I am married to a Mormon and admit to being raised with a negative view of them with my own valid reasons. I just can't get over the fact that they can become deities and rule their own planets, sounds very muslium ala 7 virgins waiting for you if you ask me.
Jim wrote on October 4, 2007 8:00 AM:PJ EVANS: "Both Churches are and recognize each other to be apostolic, as opposed to the Protestant churches which, though Christian, do not derive authority from direct apostolic succession."
As I understand it, the Anglican/Episcopalian church (which is usually seen as a Protestant denomination to the best of my knowledge) claims an "apostolic" succession for its bishops, just as the Orthodox and Catholic churches claim.
Also, the "first Christians" of the First and Second Centuries actually held a diversity of beliefs much wider than the distance separating the mainline churches from Mormonism, so I can't see any difficulty at all categorizing Mormons as Christians.
I should note that I am not a member of any of the denomimations above, and so have no personal axe to grind on behalf of any of them. I'm just interested in religious history.
I have been following politics a long time and if memory serves (and it may not), there was no major discussion of George Romney's religion when he ran for president in 1968. (His undoing was claiming that he had been brainwashed on a visit to Vietnam) If my recollection is correct (and those who know otherwise please respond), I can't help but feel sad in realizing how successful the nation's retrograde forces have been over the intervening decades.
Anton Bursch wrote on October 4, 2007 8:25 AM:If you know Evangelicals then you know that Mitt Romney doesn't have a shot at getting support from the Christian Majority. They'd vote Ellen for president before they'd vote for Mitt Romney.
From a theological point of view the LDS are further away from "mainstream" Christianity than Shia Islam is from Sunni Islam. Protestants, Catholics and Orthodox all reject Momonism as a Christian religion.
I would point out that I feel Mit Romney could be counted on to uphold "Christian" values every bit as well as George Bush though so in practice it doesn't matter. However, most fundamentalist Christians are far more interested in theory than practice.
Andrew wrote on October 4, 2007 9:15 AM:All religions are cults, but some are cultier than others. McCain himself was a cult when he last campaigned and to some was a god and a religion. Now, well, now he is just an idiot.
Thomas Paine wrote on October 4, 2007 9:24 AM:Mormons are Christians however, this entire line of discussion is an example of the massive ignorance that interferes with the exercise of freedom as designed by our nations founders.
The U.S. Constitution
The most convincing evidence that our government did not ground itself upon Christianity comes from the very document that defines it– the United States Constitution.
If indeed our Framers had aimed to found a Christian republic, it would seem highly unlikely that they would have forgotten to leave out their Christian intentions in the Supreme law of the land. In fact, nowhere in the Constitution do we have a single mention of Christianity, God, Jesus, or any Supreme Being. There occurs only two references to religion and they both use exclusionary wording. The 1st Amendment's says, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. . ." and in Article VI, Section 3, ". . . no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."
Thomas Jefferson interpreted the 1st Amendment in his famous letter to the Danbury Baptist Association in January 1, 1802:
"I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."
Some Religious activists try to extricate the concept of separation between church and State by claiming that those words do not occur in the Constitution. Indeed they do not, but neither does it exactly say "freedom of religion," yet the First Amendment implies both.
I once heard of a lion who claimed "Christians are delicious." My wife's one. She's quite tasty, as was a Mormon lady I used to date. As was the ex-nun from my past. Does that help?
MaxD wrote on October 4, 2007 10:59 AM:Why shouldn't it (Romney's beliefs in Mormon doctrine) be considered a factor in our judgments of Mitt Romney? We would rightly put some pretty sharp questions to a candidate who believed that UFOs were coming to earth in the next twenty years to take black people to paradise while leaving everyone else behind. The aliens will then occasionally orchestrate terrestrial events from somewhere in Missouri. Mitt's beliefs aren't much less silly than that scenario (in fact he believes that the Jesus will spend lots of time in Missouri during the 1000 years of peace he ushers in). Maybe these beliefs will affect his long term decision making.
By all means religious belief ought to be something we more explicitly question in our candidates. Because most religious belief is damn silly and in our public servants a little dangerous.
I don't care!
Madeline E Jackson wrote on October 4, 2007 11:15 AM:There are no real Christians. Only those who pretend that they believe in the Christ fairy.
shale sloat wrote on October 4, 2007 11:31 AM:Hello: We ought to encourage those running for any public office to clearly, and in detail, outline their religious beliefs. If they did so, many voters would be scared out of their wits at the idea of electing someone with bonkers beliefs, even among the faithful. Perhaps the candidate would be shocked at how ridiculous they sound! There's something about bringing nuttiness into the light of day.....
Jeffrey wrote on October 4, 2007 11:55 AM:james wrote on October 3, 2007 4:44 PM:
Seeing as Catholics were the first Christians and everyone else were the ones that went batshit insane, I think we can safely call the Catholics Christian.
P J Evans wrote on October 3, 2007 4:51 PM:
James, you must be talking about the Eastern Orthodox, who have been around a bit longer than the people in Rome.
You're both incorrect; the first Christians were Jews. Jesus was a Jew. He was the Messiah "promised" to the Jewish people. The disciples were all Jews. The people they preached to during Jesus's life and after his death were Jews. Jesus was the "King of the Jews." It took hundreds of years after the Romans executed Jesus for Christianity to spread into the European continent.
Zari A Kalo wrote on October 4, 2007 11:55 AM:To James
who indicated that Catholics were the first Christians.
Please read your history regarding the fact that the country of Armenia was the first Christian country, declaring its conversion to Christianity in 301 A.D. Apostles Thaddeus (in 44 A.D.) and Bartholomew (prior to 68 A.D.) spread the teachings of Jesus in Armenia, thereby converting many, including members of the royal family, from peganism to Christianity. The founding of the Catholic Church occurred in 325 A.D. through the First Council of Nicaea, convined by Emperor Constantine - a full 24 years AFTER the official founding of Christianity and a Christian Church in Armenia.
NoPCZone wrote on October 4, 2007 12:00 PM:Mormons are not Christian any more than Christians are Jews.
Bob in Austin wrote on October 4, 2007 12:00 PM:McCain's problem is the same as the mainstream Christian churches (Catholic and Protestant). They accept as "Christian" any church that professes the ancient Nicene Creed - also called the Apostle's Creed.
The LDS does not profess the Creed. It does not believe in the Trinity, it believes Mary and God had physical sex (God the Father and God Jesus Christ are two separate flesh and blood physical beings for Mormons). It is not a monotheistic religion.
Mormonism is outside of "Christianity". It is a fascinating, distinctly American creation. It is much easier for mainstream Christians to accept gays in Church than Mormons.
Houston Bridges wrote on October 4, 2007 12:03 PM:I thought McCain's answer smacked of not-so-subtle pandering to the Evangelicals who hold so much influence in the Republican Party in both Iowa and South Carolina. He's become a sad parody of himself.
He doesn't care how the Mormons of Arizona react to his claimed ignorance of their faith and his refusal to recognize them as Christians. I don't think McCain intends to run for the Senate next time around. He's had it. His term is up in 2010 -- if he makes it that long. He'll be a gazillion years old then. I look forward to visiting both him and Diane Feinstein at the Old Folks Home, and I do not mean the United States Senate.
I did enjoy this discussion immensely. There were some very clever comments.
footsore wrote on October 4, 2007 12:05 PM:It could be that it is Romney and not Giuliani that Dobson and the other religionists are truely threatened by. Even though they emphisised "pro-choice". Doesn't Romney have such a record also? The others are right; to many Christians the Mormons are a cult. It was his father,Romney's,who was denied the gop presidential candidacy in the sixties because of his religion.
footsore
Except for the subjects of war, patriotism and flag waving McCain is the least qualified of the the Republican candidates. His message has no power beyond these subjects. He should quietly step aside while he still has some pride. Such an embarrassment.
Kathy wrote on October 4, 2007 12:06 PM:To make it simple.
A Christian believes that Christ is God became man and die for our sins, so we could be worthy to go to heaven.
The first Christian were Jewish men and woman who believed this. Isn't that simple.
All the other stuff is so, so to different sects of Christians.
Mormons are not Christians, just ask them if they believe that Jesus Christ was God, they believe that he is a profit, just as Islam does.
Jewish, Christian, and Islam believes in the ONE TRUE GOD, the God of Abraham.
Mitt should be proud of himself for fanning all the flames of Mormon hatred that burn big and bright, even here at liberal TPM. When they round up the saints and send them to Gitmo, I hope he's the first one they torture.
Before that happens, the "real" Christians in the south will kill his bid for the nomination and then they'll be left with Rudy the family values guy. Bob Jones U. says Mormons and Catholics are all part of satanic cults. What's a cranky evangelical to do?
Maybe their world wide army of Blackwater Christians can rid the planet of anybody that isn't a confederate flag waving BJU alumni. Sure looks like that's the way things are headed.
Molly wrote on October 4, 2007 12:25 PM:Kathy
to make it even simpler: Mormons DO believe Jesus is God.
He is the god of this world. He created this world. Jesus is His son.
Mormons do not believe Jesus is a prophet like Islam.
The Mormon godhead is God the eternal father, his son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. Look it up.
This is appalling. America is not a theocracy. To discuss whether a candidate's religious beliefs will prevent him from upholding the Constitution is pertinent. To discuss the religion itself is not.
Mormons are a cult of adults with the intellect of a child, as is almost all religious types who believe in the christian bible and other fairy tales they cling to in their ignorance.
Eddie wrote on October 4, 2007 12:39 PM:Read Fawn Brody's "No Man Knows My History".
Rudy Smith wrote on October 4, 2007 12:46 PM:Rommey will never get elected.
He is in the LDS Cult.
Mormons believe they can become a God and rule their own solar system. (The more children they have the biggger tgeir soalr system)
They wear magic underwear, that is said to protect them.
They believe that people with black skin are not pure, (ever see any black mormons?)
Mormons believe that your salvation is through works. (Ever seen a Mormon on a Bike for his 2 year mission)
Christians believe that you are saved by the grace of god through faith in jesus christ, who came to earth and died for our sins, was raised on the third day and ascended into heaven, so that we can have eternal life with him in heaven when we die here on earth.
Whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life" (Jn. 3:16).
It is very clear to me that Joseph Smith was a false prophet. So why believe a doctrine from such a questionable source?
Jesus said in Matthew 7:15, “Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.”
How then, are we to recognize false prophets?
Deuteronomy 18:22 says, “When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that [is] the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, [but] the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.”
· Joseph Smith said that tall men dressed as Quakers live on the moon.
· Brigham Young said that men live on the sun, as well.
· Joseph Smith prophesied that Jesus would return by 1891.
. Brigham Young prophesied that the Civil War would not free the slaves
John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Since the Mormons are a large segment of the electorate in Arizona, one would expect McCain to know something about his constituents.
David Mittelman wrote on October 4, 2007 12:57 PM:Hmmm..."Is Romney a Christian?"...if by "Christian" you mean 1) one who believes that Jesus is the son of God, and 2) you should scapegoat the Jews for all your problems, then yes, I guess he is.
Chesire111 wrote on October 4, 2007 12:57 PM:To Zari A Kalo
The First Nicene Council was a key event in the history of the Church at which a fundamental Christological disputes was debated and resolved, but in no way did it "found" the Catholic Church (the Papacy was already well established and Pope St. Sylvester I wsa represented at Nicea).
The Catholic Church is apostolic, tracing it's origin to Christ's declaration that St. Peter was the rock upon which He would build His Church. Armenia was one of the first lands to have been successfully evangelized, but it was eveangelized by the Catholic Church.
Marshall wrote on October 4, 2007 1:14 PM:I just want to say that I find the comments of others who have posted here to be fascinating, because they reveal the diversity of opinion among us all.
What do I believe? I'm a Humanist Atheist. I believe we should be good to each other. Not because some book or "heavenly spirit" commands us to be, but because that is the decent thing to do.
Catholicism was not the first instance of Christian beliefs. The first people to follow Christ were know as Christians and were from Antioch.
alien wrote on October 4, 2007 1:25 PM:anyone that advocates faith as a test for holding the highest public office in the land is an ignorant traitor. Any politician can claim knowledge of religion. How can you be convinced that they even know what they are talking about, let alone practice their beliefs? George Bush went to Bible camp for salvation, but was actually plotting the capture of the ignorant evangelical base which has recently begun to understand they've been duped. Why do you think they're threating a third party? Maybe BJU will resurrect the NAZI party!
molly wrote on October 4, 2007 1:32 PM:rudy...., You don't have your facts right, you are wrong about Mormons believing we are saved by works. Mormons believe Salvation is a gift to everyone made possible by the atonement of Jesus Christ. Mormons believe even Ted Bundy is saved. And yes, there are black Mormons.
Mormons wear weird underwear? Yes. It's not as cool as the pope gets to dress but at least it's something.
So what do you think about Mormons baptizing in the name of Jesus Christ for the dead? Do you have a bible that deletes that from I Cor 15:29? Seems to me if the only way to the father is through Christ, he would make baptism in the name of Jesus Christ available to all, living or dead.
Catholicism / Popians weren't conjured up until 3 centuries after Christ established his Church. So the true Church of Christ is neither Catholic, nor an offshoot protestant faction of Catholicism.
Leroy wrote on October 4, 2007 1:40 PM:Actually the best proof that the US was not founded as a Christian nation is contained in the first treaty we entered into, The Treaty of Friendship with Tripoli, which contains the phrase, "The United States of America, being in no sense founded as a Christian Nation..." This treaty was unanimously ratified by the Senate and signed into law by Thomas Jefferson. Since, under the Constitution, all treaties become the law of the land, this clearly establishes that Christianity is in no sense the official religion of the US and never was.
fafner1 wrote on October 4, 2007 1:43 PM:Actually George Romney's religion was an issue in 1968. It was probably a bigger issue in the west, as Mormonism was still fairly rare in the mid-west and east.
Is it true that within a week after the Mormon Church declared it was no longer a sin to drink Coca-Cola, the Deseret Bottling company announced it had the Coca-Cola franchise for Utah?
Second comment on the beginnings of Christianity.
Do those of you referring to the Council of Nicea not know that it was created by Emperor Constantine and his scribe Eusebius for the sole purpose of codifying belief in Christ into a system for keeping the slaves in line? All potentially subversive ideas and gospels (such as the Gospel of Thomas) were edited out of the official Bible. All that was left was the notion that being good little cooperative Christians who do everything the priests tell you will guarantee you a life of endless joy once you die.
Gurizinho wrote on October 4, 2007 1:56 PM:>It's kind of like listening my mom try to talk about rap music.
Dave J. wins the thread. Brilliant observation!
JoeyJ wrote on October 4, 2007 2:07 PM:Who cares.
touchdown wrote on October 4, 2007 2:13 PM:Wow! Do you want to know just how absurd (and bigoted) McCain's musings over the question of whether the Mormon faith is Christianity or something more, well, sinister? Just substitute the word "negro" for Mormon.
Steve_Chicago wrote on October 4, 2007 2:15 PM:In the U.S, religion should matter because we have so many fundamental fanatics that reach high levels of government. It just shows how poor our public schools are when 1/3 of americans take the bible literally. (madeline albright talked about this) Remember when Tony Blair got scolded for mentioning god? The U.S. is a great country, however I envy well-educated secular populations in West Europe, Japan, Australia, etc.
t. kahn wrote on October 4, 2007 2:21 PM:It is absurd ask if Mormons are Christians. This is as if being Christian is a good thing. Basis of Christianity is believing in fairytales. (Christ rose from dead to go to heaven) is pure fiction.
Christians suffer from delusions and so do Jews, Muslims, Mormons, Hindus...
Chesire11 wrote on October 4, 2007 2:43 PM:JIMBOB wrote on October 4, 2007 1:40 PM:
Catholicism / Popians weren't conjured up until 3 centuries after Christ established his Church. So the true Church of Christ is neither Catholic, nor an offshoot protestant faction of Catholicism.
Then how do you explain the twenty-eight Pontiffs who preceeded the First Nicene Council? Just a bunch of guys in silly hats?
Christopher is correct to point out that the first Christian community was indeed organized in Antioch, which is the seat of the earliest patriarchal see. Until the Schism of the eleventh century, however, it remained a Catholic see (albeit of the Greek, not Latin rite).
molly wrote on October 4, 2007 2:44 PM:t.kahn...I hear ya. Some of us aren't as strong as you are. Deep down inside perhaps we are atheists too. However...we want to get along with people at family reunions, have traditions that bind the family, and pacify ourselves with a delusional belief in life after death. It's called being human.
And if some evangelicals want to call my brand of delusional thinking a cult, fine.
And if a-holes like John mccain want to exploit differences for political gain...well, I'm not surprised.
Rudy Smith wrote on October 4, 2007 2:47 PM:Does The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints not teache the following????
– God is not eternal, but was once a man on another planet
– God is married to his goddess wife and has spirit children
– Jesus is the “spirit brother” of Lucifer and all humans are their siblings
– The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are three separate gods
– The Father and the Son each have separate, physical bodies
– The book of Mormon is more accurate than the Bible
– The gospel was lost until Mormon founder Joseph Smith restored it and there is no salvation outside of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
– It is impossible to be saved by God’s grace alone
How can a dead person be baptised???
How can the gift of resurrection, given unconditionally, be saving if the gospel is not accepted? Both the wicked and the righteous shall rise from the grave. OK. So how has God’s grace saved the unrighteous through faith if they don’t have faith? And who in their right mind would consider resurrection to an eternity in Hell, a gift of grace? The scripture says, “For it is by grace you have been SAVED, through faith…” and so we are talking about a saving grace that requires nothing. I’ll say it again, God made a covenant through Christ Jesus and offers it to us. A covenant is accepted or rejected before anything regarding that covenant goes into effect.
It appears to me that your religion assumes that man has control over things that are really God’s. If we are arrogant enough to think that we can do anything to make or cause God to give us the gift of salvation, then we are guilty of denying His absolute and awesome power. You have it backwards…God asks us to accept the gift and then once we have accepted, then to show the fruits of that gift in our lives as a result.
Yay Molly!
A. Einstein wrote on October 4, 2007 2:53 PM:Rudy -- give it a rest. I'm not a Mormon -- I don't even know any. But trying to argue on a blog that your religion is "right" and someone elses (or everyone elses) is "wrong" is stupid, juvenile, ignorant, and quite frankly evil. If you're happy with your beliefs, that's great -- good for you. Take your peace of mind and sleep easily at night. Quit giving other people sh*t because they don't agree w/ you.
Danno wrote on October 4, 2007 3:00 PM:"Jesus taken seriously by many; Jesus taken joyously by few" - Leonard Cohen
andy phx wrote on October 4, 2007 3:26 PM:There is no religious test to hold office. 'In other words' being Mormon or any other religion can't disqualify you for public office in this country. However, it is the right of the individual and perfectly justified in my opinion to put a religious test to a candidate. For McCain to say "...I don't think it should be held against Gov. Romney. The fact that he's a Mormon should not be a factor in people's judgment.", is his opinion and he should keep it to himself. To tell people they shouldn't use religion as a disqualifying factor in their vote is inappropriate. I personally would NEVER vote for any Mormon nor any evangelical, fundamentalist 'Christian'. EVER! I would and do vote for candidates that have Christianity as their religion. Jimmy Carter is a Christian who not only professes Christianity as his faith but also backs it up by practicing his faith. Not by being a lip-service, blow hard, you're a sinner if you don't believe the legalistic bull shit I believe heretics.
Zeus just moved off the stage in order to test everyone's faith. So that whole thing with going with the Judean carpenter was not a very good move on anyone's part! We're all in very very big trouble! Turn before the lighning bolts start coming down from Olympus! Every day we delay he just gets more pissed off!
LOL, the only thing true about religion is that many adherents harbor the conceits that they bear the "truth" and that they claim the favor of God and this leads to hubris, sometimes with astoundingly evil results.
Chesire111 wrote on October 4, 2007 3:52 PM:Fortunately the rise of officially atheist political movements in the twentieth century put an end to all of that close-minded persecution and violence!
"Once abolish the God, and the government becomes the God."
-G.K. Chesterton
In all Fairness the LDS have tried to move away from some of their more contoversial "gods in embryo" teachings in recent years in addition to removing most of the occult aspects from their temple endowment ceremony. Most LDS are unaware that becomming a god in the celestial kingdom requires a second annointing ceremony performed by the Prophet of the Church and only available to a few high ranking members and large monetary contributors from the business community. Then again it is all a bunch of mythology anyway so who really cares?
winner wrote on October 4, 2007 4:16 PM:This is GREAT! The Republican machine is so richly divided amongst so many irrational camps, even a modest attempt at consolidating the Democratic base will obliterate any chance of a Repulican president. Yeah - keep going!
one need not abandon reason and logic in favor of advertising philisophical belief as a test of sanity. there are many well regarded clinical symptoms for delusional and psychotic behavior. unfortunately, it does take a certain amount of education and reasoning to utilize this information.
The reason Constantine accepted Christianity is that to him it resembled a form of paganism where a son usurps power from the father vis-a-vis the way Zeus claimed power from Cronos and Jupiter took power from Saturn. As for Joseph Smith, he and L Ron Hubbard have a lot in common----two con men utilizing religious overtures to get rich.
molly wrote on October 4, 2007 5:46 PM:Rudy, You aren't clear on a distinction mormons have between Salvation and Exaltation. According to Mormons, everybody gets salvation. We are God's children, he loves us, everybody will be resurrected. Not everybody will be exalted to live as God lives. That's where works come in. Life is a test.
As for baptism for the dead, all kinds of legal things are done by proxy. Those who have died can accept or reject the baptism.
It's a nice religion and motivates people to try to be good.
Whether Mormons are Christians or not is a non-issue to most people (except when a Mormon is running against you in a political race).
Similarly, abortion and gay marriage are also examples of non-issues for most people. They're used mainly as wedge-issues, to defame political opponents or to divert attention from other, more important issues (such as poverty, lack of health care, war, government fraud and ineptitude, etc.).
McCain is trying to dupe the ignorant, religious fundamentalists into voting for him over Romney -- nothing more.
Christ taught peace, and any candidate who is/has been a supporter of the war in Iraq (almost all of them except Kucinich) isn't a real Christian, despite his or her church membership credentials.
unhipcat wrote on October 4, 2007 6:41 PM:I think Jesus was the first Christian. It's pretty much gone downhill ever since.
Itseemsclear wrote on October 4, 2007 10:20 PM:The Church of JESUS CHRIST and Later-Day Saints. MMmmm, just might have something to do with Christ.
I am no fan of the Moron, having left when I a teenager. But I will assure, they are definite Christian.
Mari, Mesa Arizona wrote on October 5, 2007 6:33 AM:How silly to try to discern who is and who isn't a Christian. Who cares what religion someone is anyway. If they are decent people and avoid badmouthing another religious group, seems fine to me. Most of us in fact, are not always good representatives of our personal religious persuasion.
JCP wrote on October 5, 2007 7:35 AM:Christian: adj. 1. Professing belief in Christianity. 2. Of or derived from Jesus's teachings. 3. Of Christianity or its adherents. -n. An adherent of Christianity.
Christianity. n. 1. The Christian religion, founded on the life and teachings of Jesus. 2. Christendom. 3. The state or fact of being a Christian.
OK - is the LDS founded on or derived from the teachings of Jesus? Yes? Ok. That settles that.
You non-Mormon Christians out there, I know you think Mormonism is weird, freaky, and based on totally fictitious accounts of Jesus's second coming in America and magic underwear and all that. That, incidentally, is how atheists fees about all religions/mythologies.
But hey, believe what you want. I still believe the Yanks will win the WS, despite last night's drubbing.
christy wrote on October 5, 2007 9:25 AM:Although I am not a Republican I am a Mormon, I find many of these comments ignorant and rude. Mormons are a group made up of good people and bad people, just like any group. We are Christians because we follow the teachings of Christ. Looking for information about the Mormon religion from anit-mormon sources is like asking the nazis about the jewish faith.
Robert Odell wrote on October 5, 2007 10:34 AM:Amazing that a long-term Sneator from Arizona claims to be so clueless about Mormons and Mormonism. Do any of you have any idea how many Mormons live in Arizona??? I do not have a count, but let me guarantee you it is not that far shy of the Utah number. So is McCain incompetent by not knowing, or is he a lying liar? You can be the decider...
Chesire111 wrote on October 5, 2007 12:02 PM:It all depends on how you define Christianity, a question that's been in dispute for the better (or worse) part of 20 centuries. Traditionally, the Nicene Creed provides the summation of Christian beliefs; the Holy Trinity; the Incarnation, Crucifixion and Resurrection. Christianity is more than only reverence for Christ and His teachings. The Arians, monophysites and Nestorians would therefore not be considered Christians, even though they all profess belief in Christ and His teachings. Conversely, most Protestant faiths would be considered Christian.
Personally, I don't know enough about Mormon theology to hold an opinion on whether they are Christians or not. As a Catholic, I believe they are in error, but those whom I have met seem very sincere in that "error" and virtuous as a consequence (and much better examples of virtue than many whose Christian pedigree is unquestioned, I might add). I sure they have their share of sincere jerks too (Mitt Romney hastens to mind), I just don't happen to have encountered them. In the end, though, what does it matter? Christian faith is neither a requirement for public office, nor should it be. Personally, I would rather elect an atheist with integrity, humanity and wisdom than a "Christian" like GWB.
Robert I. Laitres wrote on October 5, 2007 5:29 PM:Such is not even the issue. A much deeper question is: Are those who claim to be "Christian", Christian at all? Most are not, at least to those of us who have looked at it. In far too many cases, we hear and read those supposedly claiming to be, totally void of any humility but a great deal of pride. "Look at me. I am Christian. I am therefore superior to those who aren't. As I am superior, I have the righ to control others."
I usually answer: "If you have to tell me that you are Christian in order for me to know, you are not one."
What is really happening is that that group calling themselves "social conservatives", or "Christian fundamentalists" are neither. On the political front they are actually reactionaries using "religion" and a political party, the Republican Party, as a tool in their attempt to alter this country into a theocracy. They, of course, would be in charge. Neither can the be called "fundamentalists" as they have totally rejected the fundamentals of Christianity and prostituted their religion for political an pecuniary gain. When they use the bible in their campaigns one should recognize what they really are, they are "literalists" and in no way, shape, or form fundamentalists, at least to what constitutes any real Christianity as I would understand it.
That, in a nutshell, is what is going so very wrong with our country right now. The idiots who would rather argue over whether mormons are christians or not, usually, judgemental, bible thumping, hate-spewing christians who have tried to take the country hostage and impose their closet morality on the rest of us. If you want to know anything about religion, take a college course. Catholicism broke from judaism and all these other so-called christians(nutjobs every single one of them) came from catholicism. The world, and our country with be much better off, if we could do away with religion and all the bigotry, racism and scandal that comes with it. John McCain and every other idiot who still believes we were founded as a christian nation should go back to school and take a bit more history to learn that we were founded on religious tolerance and freedom, not leaning towards any particular one. To all you idiots who think I am an atheist, I was actually raised catholic and think that all religion corrupts and serves to control the many sheeples who vote blindly for morally corrupt leaders both religious ad political. Remember, your so-called christian leaders help to put in power the most corrupt, dirty and constitution violating administration in our nations history. May Jerry Falwell be in hell for that right now and may Pat Robertson, James Dobson and the rest of those false prophets join him there soon.
T Ross wrote on October 6, 2007 8:49 PM:What is that growth on the left side of his face? Can pigment be added to his skin and hair. Zoom teeth whitening? If you are going up against Romney, you better bring it!
AndreaSue wrote on October 6, 2007 10:05 PM:I really want an agnostic or an atheist to run for president one day, even though I know it'll never happen. I would respect a presidential hopeful more if they admitted to being an atheist or an agnostic. It speaks to their abilities of logic and reason and shows that they'd rather have an unsettling truth than an comfortable myth, which is something we don't see in our presidential hopefuls.
Swagongoda wrote on October 7, 2007 6:32 PM:I had a dream that I went back in time to 1776 Philadelphia and snuck in the Continental Congress debate.
Next, I managed to to write in the debating notes the following:
"The separation of church and state shall be absolute"
Then I woke up and everything was fine; espescially when I learned Reagan lost and the christen right did not exist.
Most intelligent people are atheists, including most politicians, because the belief that mystical unseen powers are controlling life on earth is nonsense. There is no difference between believing in "god" and believing in the tooth fairy. It is taboo to confess to atheism, so most people in the public realm are forced to pay lip service to pander to the religious numbskulls in this country.
Aaron wrote on October 25, 2007 5:27 PM:It amazes me how prejudice we can be in this country. Bash Christians, bash Mormons --it's no different than racism.
Who freaking cares what church these people go to. If religion is so irrelevant and unnecessary as comments here have suggested, then why do we care so much? Ripping a candidate apart on the basis of religion is no different than saying:
I will never vote for Barack Obama because he's black.
or
I will never vote for Hillary Clinton because she's a woman.
Aren't we better than that?
Rev Trask wrote on October 30, 2007 8:30 PM:Why do you care if Mormons are Christian or not?
Will Argyle wrote on January 31, 2008 12:15 AM:While serving as a Mormon missionary in Japan, I botched the language and accidentally taught that God was a carrot.
What I remember best from this experience was the remarkable civility shown toward me by my audience, despite my "produce aisle god."
Am I a Christian? I think so. Even if Mormonism is a load of bunk, and I get to Heaven and Peter tells me so, I won't be without hope; I've felt Jesus, and I've written his name on my heart.
In a very real sense, I don't think being a Christian is a matter of doctrine. I think that those kind-hearted Japanese, who refused to mock my "sacred tuber," are more likely to enjoy their eternal reward than many I meet on the pews.
As for John McCain--he seems a okay guy. I believe he means what he says and I support his determination to elude this trick-bag issue.
