Election Central | Talking Points Memo | Rudy Won't Say Whether Waterboarding Is Torture, Blames Liberal Media

Rudy Won't Say Whether Waterboarding Is Torture, Blames Liberal Media

By Eric Kleefeld - October 25, 2007, 1:15PM

In a town hall meeting in Iowa last night, Rudy Giuliani offered an extended explanation of his views on torture — and refused to say whether he thinks waterboarding constitutes an inappropriate technique.

Rudy also made it clear that he favors "aggressive questioning" of terror suspects, and blamed the liberal media for his refusal to clarify his views of waterboarding, saying the media inaccurately describes what waterboarding is by making it seem unacceptable in all cases.

Check out Rudy's torture comments after the jump — they're pretty eye-opening.

At the town hall, Rudy was asked about Attorney General nominee Michael Mukasey's hedging on the question of whether waterboarding is torture.

"I'm not sure it is, either," said Rudy. "It depends on how it's done. It depends on the circumstances. It depends on who does it."

And as for the media, Rudy said they've exaggerated the nature of waterboarding.

"Sometimes they describe it accurately. Sometimes they exaggerate it," Rudy said. "So I'd have to see what they really are doing, not the way some of these liberal newspapers have exaggerated it.

"Now, on the question of torture. We should not torture. America should not stand for torture, America should not allow torture. But America should engage in aggressive questioning of Islamic terrorists who are arrested or who are apprehended. Because if we don’t we leave ourselves open to significant attack."

Comments (180)

Anonymous wrote on October 25, 2007 1:32 PM:

Liar.

bob wrote on October 25, 2007 1:35 PM:

Whether or not something is torture certainly does not depend on the circumstances or who does it!

He doesn't even know the right questions to ask. Rudy is definitely pro-torture. He apparently thinks there is waterboarding and then there's really waterboarding. Waterboarding-light, perhaps. Where the person is held down but only thinks they are drowning a little bit.

Scumbag.

Michael Mitchell wrote on October 25, 2007 1:43 PM:

For Rudy and Mukasey: waterbord them and then let them comment on whether they think it's torture.

Pete wrote on October 25, 2007 1:44 PM:

I thought Republicans favored moral clarity, and harbored a distain for situational ethics. Now whether waterboarding is right or wrong depends on the circumstances and who's doing it?

I'd like to see one of these macho Republican candidates who defend waterboarding to sign up for a demo to prove once and for all it's not torture. Fifteen seconds into an "enhanced" interogation and tough-guy Rudy would be squealing "I'm Hillary's bitch."

Anonymous wrote on October 25, 2007 1:45 PM:

“If I can’t figure out that there’s been a significant media bias against this war, then I shouldn’t be running for president of the United States.”
(Applause) [This is straight out of Colbert, the truth has a well known liberal bias. If you don't know that most of America wants this war to end, then you shouldn't be running for president.]

“And I see, when the Democrats are talking about torture, they’re not just talking about even this definition of waterboarding, which again, if you look at the liberal media and you look at the way they describe it, you could say it was torture and you shouldn’t do it. But they talk about sleep deprivation. I mean, on that theory, I’m getting tortured running for president of the United States. That’s plain silly. That’s silly.’’ [You are the silly one.]

“I have known every American president since Gerald Ford. I knew Richard Nixon, but before he was president. I met him, I didn’t know him. I can’t say I knew Richard Nixon. But I’ve known every American president since Gerald Ford. Some Republicans, some Democrats. I can’t think of a one that would ever want to see somebody tortured. Also can’t think of a one that wouldn’t have the courage to make some tough decisions to protect the lives of the American people. And that’s the kind of person you have to have as president of the United States.’’ [Backhanded compliment of Clinton?]

Paul B wrote on October 25, 2007 1:48 PM:

If Rudy thinks waterboarding is not torture, some journalist should ask him if he would allow himself to be used in a demonstration to prove it.

Michael wrote on October 25, 2007 1:51 PM:

I agree with bob, if he doesn't know he should be waterboarded and then ask him. Simple. It really is pretty disgusting that our country has been debating the definition of torture for 6 years now. What has happened to our country? It really is frightening. This should be a non-issue. I really think that repukes may be insane.

Alphaboy wrote on October 25, 2007 1:56 PM:

The most revealing comment, actually, was Giuliani's take on sleep deprivation, which he doesn't consider torture. Indeed, he compared the lack of sleep he has experienced during the election campaign to the intense, days-long sleep deprivation suffered by victims of torture.

So now we have one presidential contender (Mitt Romney) claiming that having his sons work on his campaign is akin to serving overseas in Iraq, and yet another (Giuliani) claiming that a few sleepless nights is akin to forced sleep deprivation. Presidential campaigns are tough, but not that tough.

Anonymous wrote on October 25, 2007 2:13 PM:

"But America should engage in aggressive questioning of Islamic terrorists who are arrested or who are apprehended."

Oh, I see. We should only torture Islamic terrorists. White supremacist terrorists in the U.S. who accumulate vast arsenals in their basements or warehouses and plan to blow up federal buildings must be handled with kid gloves. Thanks for clarifying that for us, Ghouliani.

Vulture Breath wrote on October 25, 2007 2:14 PM:

What about sodomizing with a toilet bowl plunger? Is that torture, or not torture, depending on how it's done and who's doing it? Like, if it's done tenderly, not torture?

Vulture Breath wrote on October 25, 2007 2:19 PM:

Don't forget Rumsfeld defending prolonged standing positions, because he works standing up at his desk.

Surely there must be some neocon who works with his hands cuffed behind his back, strung up on a meathook with his toes dangling above the floor. We need to hear from that person.

phil james wrote on October 25, 2007 2:24 PM:

But this all gets back to the key question on torture which is the hypothetical about a captured suspected terrorist who is believed to know about plans for an imminent attack and who refuses to give information freely about where the nuke that is about to take out upper Manhattan in three minutes is located. Would any presidential candidate, thug or Democrat, rule out the use of torture in this instance. And of course, none has given an unambiguous YES answer to this. Damn right everyone of them would go for torture if they thought it might save the day. All you have to do then to go from that point to supporting torture in general is expand the timeframe and the relatedness to any specific attack and you have the current torture policy, which incidently, no 2008 candidate is ever going to change.

owenz wrote on October 25, 2007 2:26 PM:

Someone should ask Rudy to "describe it properly" so we understand when waterboarding isn't torture.

mickey g wrote on October 25, 2007 2:26 PM:

Hold on to yer hats, Rudy's just getting his idiocy warmed up. Wait 'til you see him in mid-season form....

....and if he doesn't know that REAL Yankee fans do not root for the RedSox, how's he supposed to know if waterboarding is torture ?

I can't wait to the General Election Cycle wrote on October 25, 2007 2:26 PM:

These idiots are really going to do great things for the GOP.

Hey some kid - just pulled up with my son and had a T-shirt on that

Front: Got Freedom?

Back: GOP

WTF?
I think the correlation to Righties and Fascism and anti-freedom can be pretty easily proven.

phil james wrote on October 25, 2007 2:29 PM:

And, by the way the rationale and underpinnings of our current torture policy extend to redition, black sites, GITMO, Abu Graib, the Iraqi civilian population, and just recently to employees of Iranian banks. Our enemies are everywhere and war is hell.

gcs wrote on October 25, 2007 2:32 PM:

What he meant to say was that we're the "good guys" so by definition nothing we do can possibly be "bad."

I wonder if there's a single Rudy supporter who has anything more advanced than a high school diploma, or an 80 IQ.

Just wondering wrote on October 25, 2007 2:38 PM:

Someone should ask these Republican candidates whether President Lincoln should have waterboarded confederate prisoners during the Civil War. Surely the nation was under a greater threat then than now.

George Smiley wrote on October 25, 2007 2:43 PM:

Situational ethics and moral relativism, in the worst possible senses. The man is a disgrace.

Kevin wrote on October 25, 2007 2:49 PM:

Please, please... someone grant him his wish so he can make up his mind. Subject him to the procedure as commonly practiced...

idiot. don't get me wrong - it's morally reprehensible and illegal, and no one should be subjected to torture. But if this nimnull wants to make hyperbolic statements like this - then who are we to deny him the opportunity to figure it out, eh?

RichM wrote on October 25, 2007 2:52 PM:

Somebody please tell St. Rudy that we prosecuted Japanese officials for TORTURE after WW II for using water boarding techniques on pilots that bombed Japan? Idiot.

Mary wrote on October 25, 2007 2:52 PM:

Where are the Dem candidates on this specific question?

In my heart of hearts, I sadly feel many of them would pander to the same position Rudy has taken - especially the Dem leader of the pack.

How sad for America.

foggylady wrote on October 25, 2007 2:56 PM:

See, it's this way...

if "bad guys" do it, it's bad.

If "good guys" do it, it's good.

Therefore, "good guys" can't do bad things.

Gotta keep that line in the sand flexible, don't cha know..

Sheesh...

phil james wrote on October 25, 2007 3:00 PM:

The Dem leader of the pack agrees with Rudy.

ihatebeets wrote on October 25, 2007 3:09 PM:

Huh?? It depends on who's doing it? Waterboarding is either torture or it's not. Hundreds of years of evidence and opinion defined it as torture, plain and simple. This business of if we do it, it's OK but when others do it constitutes torture is traveling down a dark and sick road. We've got to restore some semblance of order and global equality in standards - not US=GOOD; Arab World=BAD, rest of the world=DEPENDS ON WHO IS DOING IT

randolph wrote on October 25, 2007 3:31 PM:

So, if Rudy has to "see exactly what they are doing" how does he know that the "liberal newspapers" are exaggerating about waterboarding?

phil james wrote on October 25, 2007 3:50 PM:

Is anyone reading these "comments" before they are posted? Do we really consider porno posts part of the conversation here?

sy wrote on October 25, 2007 4:04 PM:

I guess its a blessing of sorts to be so fucking dim.

eric wrote on October 25, 2007 4:17 PM:

"Is anyone reading these "comments" before they are posted?"

It looks to be a spam-bot. Someone needs to work on the filtering and spam protection.

eric wrote on October 25, 2007 4:22 PM:

What is so baffling to me is that it *doesn't* matter who is doing it. Of course it doesn't. If you were taking a law exam and you gave that answer, it would be objectively *wrong*. The fact that he is able to get away with saying crap like this is proof that many people in this country are very, very dim - and deluded. It is scary.

Jake D. wrote on October 25, 2007 4:29 PM:

eric:

Why do you think that arguing "10 seconds under cellophane does not rise to the 'severe' level required under the law" would be wrong on a law exam? You are aware that Professor Yoo TEACHES law at Boalt Hall, right?

Richterscale wrote on October 25, 2007 4:41 PM:

Ok, now i get it. If Al Qaida were to waterboard somebody, that would be torture. but if an American soldier or CIA agent does it, it's not. It's all so clear to me now.

eric wrote on October 25, 2007 4:51 PM:

Jake D: The *issue*, here is that it doesn't matter "who" does something. What the hell does cellophane have to do with that?

Yes, if you had responded with that answer to a law exam which asked you to examine the issue of whether it matters "who" does the waterboarding, then yes, you would be objectively wrong. It isn't even on-point.

Who, not what. Try to follow along.

wrs wrote on October 25, 2007 4:55 PM:

When Rudy (and Mukasey, and anybody that thinks it's no big deal) volunteers to go through waterboarding, I'll be impressed. Until then, they obviously don't know what they're talking about and are apparently unable to grasp the concept via somebody else's description. But if they don't think it's torture, then try it out.

Jake D. wrote on October 25, 2007 4:58 PM:

It DOES matter "who" is doing it -- as well as "what" is being done ("waterboarding" can include 10 or less seconds of "torture") -- please review the following definition:

"Any act by which SEVERE pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person . . . when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a PUBLIC OFFICIAL or other person acting in an official capacity. It does NOT include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions."

eric wrote on October 25, 2007 5:04 PM:

Oh Jake. How does that passage speak to the who question? It doesn't - trust me, it doesn't.

Notwithstanding Yoo's disgusting definitions and justification of torture, I am pretty sure even he wouldn't say that torture depends on the person doing it.

Seriously, are you trying to distract from the issue or do you not understand it?

Jake D. wrote on October 25, 2007 5:13 PM:

I understand it. What part of ". . . when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a PUBLIC OFFICIAL or other person acting in an official capacity" are you having a hard time understanding? Last time I checked, Professor Yoo EXPLICTLY argued that it certainly depends if the "who" is the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES ordering the crushing of a child's testicles.

cjop wrote on October 25, 2007 5:27 PM:

Fine. Strap him down and show him. Even keep the liberal press out in the halls.

zlojdrocher wrote on October 25, 2007 5:30 PM:

Jake D. wrote on October 25, 2007 5:32 PM:

cjop:

Strap "who" down? Are you seriously suggesting that the only people who should be allowed to support torture are those who have it done to themselves? Can we use the same logic for abortion?

Jake D. wrote on October 25, 2007 5:35 PM:

Only those who have been aborted can support abortion . . .

Jake D. wrote on October 25, 2007 5:46 PM:

eric:

Did you make it past the Tramadol spam? The way I read it, in response to a question on whether or not waterboarding is torture, he said it depends on the circumstances under which it is done, which includes who is doing it. In other words, a private at a jail in Iraq doing it for giggles is wrong but an interrogator doing it with the approval of the chain of command is not.

To put it another way, if I lock someone up in my basement for years, it is a crime. And I will likely go to prison where I will be locked up for years, which is perfectly legal. I honestly think this is what Rudy was talking about when he said "it depends on who does it."

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The Khmer Rouge practiced torture as an exquisite and horrifying method of subjugating even the mildest forms for dissent. Waterboarding was a regular treat for any dissident who didn't end up in the Killing Fields. What the Khmer Rough knew, and what other state sponsors of torture know, is that torture is NOT an effective means of extracting actionable intelligence. However, it is a highly effective method of terrorizing people who might be sympathetic to the cause of the person, or persons, being tortured. In other words, torture is really only effective as a means of Terrorism. Yes, that is correct. Terrorism. Why does Rudy support Terrorism? Cazart!

Jake D. wrote on October 25, 2007 6:34 PM:

Cinderella:

Waterboarding was allegedly very effective against Khalid Sheikh Mohammed as to his planning 9/11 and other attacks that were prevented.

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Jess wrote on October 26, 2007 12:15 AM:

Exactly right. Of course it depends on who does it. When CIA personnel volunteer for waterboarding exercises, that wasn't torture. That was only to show that, on average, they lasted only 14 seconds.

Since such an experiment was not torture, everything else must be. QED.

~ Jess

Rev.Fat wrote on October 26, 2007 1:39 AM:

Jake D and Atlas Scruggs are so right, torture proved itself to be a viable and worthwhile skill as witnessed during the Inquisition.The kneecap Crusher,for example, was very successful at getting Heretics and Jews to admit that they were conversing in person with Satan and that Jesus was their savior. We Americans are just following a long line of skilled artisans and are proving how perfected torture has finally become.How impressed I was for our "boys" to have them experience the joys of walking naked adult men like dogs and plugging their dicks into wall sockets.Just imagine the fine memories these young folk will have as they flip burgers and stock the shelves at WalMart.This is certainly a great country. As Jake D likes to point out waterboarding is actually quite gentle, probably akin to getting a couple of root canals done "the old fashioned way" with files and a torch and really nothing to fret about.Personally ,I favor bringing back the rack and public crucifixions.You'll curry the favor of the religious right, get tons of information and some real estate as well and provide the not so bright American citizens some well deserved entertainment and a nice change to their non stop eating of everything in sight.

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Jake, I understand your point. The permission by a public official point. We got spammed out of this thread. Oh well.

eric wrote on October 26, 2007 11:33 AM:

Jake, I understand your point. The permission by a public official point. We got spammed out of this thread. Oh well.

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