Election Central Debate Roundup
• The official transcript to last night's Republican debate, hosted by CNN and YouTube, is available here.
• CNN made a huge mistake last night, allowing a question from Retired Brig. Gen. Keith Kerr, an openly gay man, and furthermore letting Kerr personally appear to speak to the candidates. However, Kerr is actually a Hillary Clinton supporter, a fact that will likely invite accusations of being a plant. On CNN this morning Kerr denied that he had coordinated his activities with the Clinton campaign, or that he's done any direct work with them other than lending his name as a supporter.
• The Republicans really let each other have it last night, questioning each others' conservative credentials on a wide range of issues. Perhaps the biggest issue of the night was illegal immigration.
• Mitt Romney hit Rudy Giuliani for running a "sanctuary city" for illegal aliens. "And the idea that they reported any illegal alien that committed a crime — how about the fact that the people who are here illegally have violated the law?" Romney said. "They didn't report everybody they found that was here illegally."
• Rudy shot right back at Romney, bringing up the matter of illegals having worked on Romney's own lawn in the past — or "sanctuary mansion" as Rudy called it — via a landscaping firm that Romney had hired. "It just happens you have a special immigration problem that nobody else up here has," Rudy said. "You were employing illegal immigrants. That is a pretty serious thing. They were under your nose."
• Mike Huckabee defended his past proposal to give college scholarships to the children of illegals, saying that "we're not going to punish a child because the parent committed a crime."
• In a very telling moment, Tom Tancredo took some joy from what he was hearing. "I have to tell you, so far, it's been wonderful," he said. "Because all I've heard is people trying to out-Tancredo Tancredo."
• The candidates were all asked to prepare their own 30-second YouTube ad, to be shown during the debate. Everybody played it positive — except Fred Thompson, whose piece attacked Romney and Huckabee:
• Rudy Giuliani was booed for his line about gun rights. "As far as that's concerned, what I believe is, the Second Amendment gives people an individual right to keep and to bear arms," he said, before getting to the tough part. "Government can impose reasonable regulations." And then the booing began as he outline the sorts of regulations he thinks states should be allowed to impose.
• Huckabee did a great job at appealing to the crowd, channeling his Baptist minister side. It was best summed up by his response to a question of what Jesus would do about the death penalty. "Jesus was too smart to ever run for public office, Anderson," he said, with the crowd and the other candidates laughing and applauding. "That's what Jesus would do."
• Mitt Romney refused to ruled out waterboarding or declare that it is in fact torture. One line was quite telling: "I want to make sure that what happened to Khalid Sheikh Mohammed happens to other people who are terrorists."
• John McCain lit into Mitt Romney: "I am astonished that you would think such a — such a torture would be inflicted on anyone in our — who we are held captive and anyone could believe that that's not torture." He then challenged Romney to be intellectually consistent and advocate a withdrawal from the Geneva Conventions, rather than continue to break them.
• Romney shot back by citing a very interesting source. "I'm not going to specify the specific means of what is and what is not torture so that the people that we capture will know what things we're able to do and what things we're not able to do," Romney said. "And I get that advice from Cofer Black, who is a person who was responsible for counter-terrorism in the CIA for some 35 years." He did not mention Black's role as a vice chairman at Blackwater.
• McCain also went after Ron Paul — an easy target at a GOP debate — saying his isolationist attitude is the sort of thing that let Hitler come to power. "And I want to tell you something, sir," he added. "I just finished having Thanksgiving with the troops, and their message to you is — the message of these brave men and women who are serving over there is, "Let us win. Let us win."
• Paul hit right back: "The real question you have to ask is why do I get the most money from active duty officers and military personnel?" He then denied that he is an isolationist, saying he wants to trade with other countries, travel and talk to people.
• Later on, Paul was roundly booed when he declared about terrorism, "They come here because we're occupying their country, just as we would object if they occupied our country."
• Duncan Hunter gave an interesting reason for why openly gay people should be banned from the military, saying that most servicemen are conservatives. "They have conservative values, and they have Judeo-Christian values," he said. "To force those people to work in a small tight unit with somebody who is openly homosexual goes against what they believe to be their principles, and it is their principles, is I think a disservice to them." You could change a few words there, and it would be exactly the same as those who said 60 years ago that it was wrong to force racist white people to serve with blacks in the military.
Comments (34)
colonpowwow wrote on November 29, 2007 9:37 AM:And then Huckabee brought down the house with his comment that the non-politician from Galilee was killed by an unholy alliance of Church and State.
(sigh) If only . . .
gravel kucinich paul nader wrote on November 29, 2007 9:39 AM:HDNet Dec 1 DNC debate (Sat 7:30pm ET).
- all eight -
gravel kucinich paul nader
gravel kucinich paul nader wrote on November 29, 2007 9:40 AM:HDNet Dec 1 DNC debate (Sat 7:30pm ET).
- all eight -
gravel kucinich paul nader
Daniel wrote on November 29, 2007 9:40 AM:We are five weeks from Iowa, and the Republican debate showcased the absence of a front-runner in the race. Compare the spectacle with the Democratic debates of the past few months, where every candidate draws fire on Hillary Clinton, hoping to finally make her slip. There was no such dynamic, as there was no man to take down. Instead, fights erupted between different groups of candidates, reflecting the tensions of the campaign trail. Read the rest of the detailed analysis here.
Anonymous wrote on November 29, 2007 10:11 AM:The the take home message from the debate is: "If only we can get rid of all these illegal Mexicans, all our problems would be solved".
But then, what else do they have to talk about?
loki wrote on November 29, 2007 10:14 AM:I don't know... but I think I agree with a forum member in another thread that talked about 'Votenic' and others. There's too much rank, opportunistic self-advertising in these pages.
At-Large and Anonymous wrote on November 29, 2007 10:31 AM:That Duncan Hunter comment was reprehensible. The questioner, though (Hillary's General), kind of undermines that premise.
Who turned that argument on its head by saying "I believe our servicemen and women are PROFESSIONAL enough to serve alongside homosexuals?" That was very interesting, to imply that Hunter's comments were rooted in a belief that the military is rife with unprofessionalism. That can play well with most people, too - even conservative banks and the like discourage homophobia and anti-gay jokes. I'm not saying that old white men don't make those remarks over scotch, but they recognize now what is professional and what isn't and probably think the troops can, too.
squenz wrote on November 29, 2007 10:49 AM:Ron Paul: He sure got the CNN shaft (who picked the 40 questions from thousands). The “independent run” question was a nasty curveball, trying to portray him as a non-contender. Maybe enough people take offense at the way he has been treated and rally around him. He is the only Rep making any real suggestions (perhaps not all very good, but still) on how to turn the country around.
Romney: What a slick customer. How can anyone not see through his act, trying to tell everyone exactly what they want to hear? I certainly, however, didn’t want to hear that he wouldn’t be able to recognize torture if he saw it.
Giuliani: Another person trying to change his identity to appease the Republican base. How pathetic. Maybe they'll finally figure out what he's all about - himself.
McCain: What was that rant about World War II and isolationism. How can he compare moving troops out after what would be over 5 (!) years of occupation with not going into WWII. I think he needs a long, long rest.
Thompson: For once I agree with him, he does remind me of Cheney...
Hunter, Tancredo: Scary bookends.
Recent polling show that the view of American troops on serving with openly homosexual troops is changing rapidly. It's going to happen, whether the GOP can accept that or not.
Romney had a HORRIBLE night. He looked terrible on so many issues it was hard to keep track. Just a principleless rich guy, finally getting his comeuppance. About time the other GOP candidates woke up and realized he's in the lead.
Anonymous wrote on November 29, 2007 10:54 AM:I thought the crowd was pretty pro-Ron Paul, actually.
davcbr wrote on November 29, 2007 11:14 AM:So, this is what Huckabee believes:
...there's Jesus sitting over there in the corner teaching a small group when one of them asks "what do you think should be done about capital punishment?" Thinking briefly about what he knew of his own fate and putting it aside since it would unfairly influence an honest answer, he then replied "Well actually, I'm not running for public office here. And since I'm not, there isn't really anything - I - could do about it, so hey, you'll have to be happy with that. What can anybody do?"
moondancer wrote on November 29, 2007 11:20 AM:GOP candidates truly beat themselves with ugly hammers last night.
Rudy and the Mittster probably did themselves in with independents. Rudy cooked himself period.
If the dems were able to script this, they couldn't have asked for more.
Huckleberry came out looking the most presidential. Figure that. The creationist hillbilly preacher presented gravitas.
Hey! Daniel @ November 29, 2007 9:40 AM is dead on correct. The Republican front-runner, Hillary Clinton, being absent from the debate last night was mind-stunning. Does she think so little of her competition that she can blow them off, dismiss them outta hand and win by ignoring them . . . The hubris of Clinton is appauling.
Next thing you know Clinton's campaign will engineer a interview with the moderator of the next debate and manage to get it cancelled, so she'll be the only one that gets broadcast TV exposure or something like that . . .
LJ wrote on November 29, 2007 11:22 AM:Everybody played it positive — except Fred Thompson, whose piece attacked Romney and Huckabee:
Wasn't McCain's piece an attack on Hillary? How's that playing it positive?
DemAC wrote on November 29, 2007 11:30 AM:Richard L. Adlof,
Your attacking Hillary Clinton in this thread is totally uncalled for. The ostentatious name calling and meanness cannot hide that you lack facts and substance.
Hillary Clinton has voted on legislation in the US Senate for seven years now, and her lifetime voting on all issues is rated 11th most progressive in the Senate by the ADA. For example, her voting record shows that especially on labor issues that are most vital to coporations, she votes 100% for workers and union issues, directly opposing corporate interests. Her voting record in the Senate on progressive issues gets a score of over 95% according to ADA.
Whatever Hillary-hating Kool-Aid you’re drinking – it’s not spiked with facts.
Jmac wrote on November 29, 2007 11:34 AM:...there's Jesus sitting over there in the corner teaching a small group when one of them asks "what do you think should be done about capital punishment?" Thinking briefly about what he knew of his own fate and putting it aside since it would unfairly influence an honest answer, he then replied "Well actually, I'm not running for public office here. And since I'm not, there isn't really anything - I - could do about it, so hey, you'll have to be happy with that. What can anybody do?"
This is sort of a trap question all the way around, particularly because Jesus never specifically mentioned capital punishment during his ministry. And, seeing how crucifixion was the prominent means of punishing, well, anything in the Roman Empire, he had ample opportunity to do so (and it was also condoned in the Old Testament writings, of which he was aware of).
But Jesus wasn't a political leader, so I greatly respected Huckabee's answer on the matter.
Huckabee's the GOP's best candidate by far, and I definitely don't want to see him in the general election despite his low polling numbers right now. He'd give either Clinton or Obama a good run.
Laura Brown wrote on November 29, 2007 11:35 AM:Richard L. Adlof: Hey sucker! If anything you prove you’re a Rethug by doing what Rethugs always do – attack Hillary Clinton.
Behave like a Democrat or shut the fuck up!
Anonymous wrote on November 29, 2007 11:51 AM:Jmac, the whole point of picking the cross as Jesus' symbol was to subvert the death penalty so frequently meted out by the Romans.
It's like choosing the electric chair or lethal injection syringe today.
Why do so many Christians know so little about their religion? The whole sanctity of life most certainly includes opposing state-sanctioned murder, as some Christian critics refer to it.
At least Huckabee allowed for some allegory in the Bible rather than just literal (Earth is 6000 years old) truth.
But Huckabee's dumb joke about Jesus and the death penalty was a purely political, cynical dodge. That CNN let him off so easy for being a major hypocrite on his CHRISTIAN LEADERSHIP (as his ad flashed up in giant letters) was pathetic.
Anonymous wrote on November 29, 2007 12:13 PM:Can someone explain to me what Romney meant by "corporate"?
"...most kids who leave that breakfast table and go out and serve in the military and make that corporate decision with their family..."
I suppose he could be using the word "corporate" in the sense of a body of individuals, but it just sounds weird to me. Is it a church thing to talk about families making corporate decisions?
The take home message from the debate is: "If only we can get rid of all these illegal Mexicans, all our problems would be solved".
No, it was: "If we can only wall out all the Mexicans, waterboard all the Arabs, make all the gays disappear and kill Hillary Clinton, THEN all our problems would be solved."
Your modern GOP: equal opportunity haters.
Keith wrote on November 29, 2007 1:11 PM:Read John 8 before you assert that "Jesus never mentioned capital punishment during his ministry." You can try and parse the story of the adulteress and the mob as a lesson about something less controversial, like "hypocrisy," or "vigilante justice," but that doesn't make it any less about the death penalty.
Freedom Ain't Dumb wrote on November 29, 2007 1:17 PM:[i]And then Huckabee brought down the house with his comment that the non-politician from Galilee was killed by an unholy alliance of Church and State.
(sigh) If only . . .[/i]
This comment is pure genius.
One other thing about Huckabee's Jesus answer... I am not convinced that anyone can say Jesus was NOT a political figure.
We are talking about the Roman Empire here. An openly democratic political campaign against Ceasar equals lions.
Seems to me that Jesus ran the only kind of campaign that could be run at the time.
RobbyLove wrote on November 29, 2007 1:46 PM:The wingnuts are going absolutely bat sh*t over the Democratic "plants" at the debate. I think they are right to take CNN to task for their unbelievable incompetence in this regard, but I doubt that any of the campaigns had the audacity or the apparatus to get their people "planted".
I know if Fox held a debate for Democrats (they certainly tried to!) and this type of thing happened, we'd all be losing our minds, too. I think they have a legitimate right to be miffed. CNN really did the Democrats no favors by screwing the pooch so badly.
DemAC wrote on November 29, 2007 1:46 PM:Freedom Ain't Dumb,
Exactly! And especially as crucifixion was the Roman punishment of choice for political rebels. The Empire was fairly tolerant towards different religions, but for rebels and freedom fighters there was no mercy. The Roman Empire judged Jesus a rebel against Rome, as strong a political statement as they came, at the time.
DemAC,
So ironic that the question that Huck gave this answer to was about Capital Punishment.
I mean really... did he even stop to think to ask himself what Jesus would think of Capital Punishment, considering the circumstances?
Or is Huck wittingly trying to have it both ways or avoid answering this one openly because he knows the wingnuts looooove that death penalty? (Despite Jesus' demise)
Shorter Huckabee: I was for crucifixion before I was against it.
RobbyLove wrote on November 29, 2007 2:22 PM:A better one for the wingnuts:
Is crucifixion torture?
lane filler wrote on November 29, 2007 3:19 PM:Anyone interested in what Huckabee is really like face to face should try this funny (but it actually happened) column:
http://goupstate.us/index.php/lanefiller/2007/11/02/title_14
Anyone looking for a different take on the GOP YouTube debate should try:
http://goupstate.us/index.php/lanefiller/2007/11/28/youtube_madness
J"mac, the whole point of picking the cross as Jesus' symbol was to subvert the death penalty so frequently meted out by the Romans."
Ummm…no. The point of using the cross has always been to remind us of the sacrifice Christ freely endured for Man.
Chesire111 wrote on November 29, 2007 4:02 PM:"I am not convinced that anyone can say Jesus was NOT a political figure.
We are talking about the Roman Empire here. An openly democratic political campaign against Caesar equals lions.
Seems to me that Jesus ran the only kind of campaign that could be run at the time."
Actually, Christ repeatedly made the point during His ministry that he was not concerned about earthly matters, except insofar as they affect the state of men's souls. Although, I think it's safe to say that He would oppose the death penalty but His opposition would be based primarily upon the damage it does to the executioner's soul.
Incidentally, the one instance in which His political views were solicited, He chose instead to change the subject ("Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's")
Jane wrote on November 29, 2007 4:04 PM:I (giggle) actually watched the Republican (giggle, giggle) Debacle last night.
CNN started with 24 undecided Republicans who looked slightly tense and were responsible for rating the candidates by pokeing numbers on hand held devices. The results trailed across the screen on lines that looked like prison bars and with yellow and blue lines which obscured the candidates' faces. Presumably the point was to tell the audience how they were supposed to feel.
The in room audience seemed to have a fair number of Ron Paul supporters who made life difficult for the other candidates by booing a number of otherwise reliable Republican applause line.
Mitt Romney stared intently into the camera at all times like the world's best used car salesman.
I stayed to listen when the moderator asked the undecided whether they had been convinced by any of the candidates. No one in the glum group confessed. Then the moderator prodded one woman a bit -- I know you have decided on some one. The woman demurred -- you asked about these candidates. Moderator said something along the lines of I know you have decided on somebody. So wait for it -- the woman had decided to -- gasp -- vote for Edwards.
ROTFL
The Rethuglicans cannot have been pleased with the night.
votenic wrote on November 29, 2007 4:05 PM:2008 Presidential Candidate Weekly Poll
The Only Poll That Matters.
Results Posted Weekly Tuesday Night at Midnight.
"CNN made a huge mistake last night, allowing a question from Retired Brig. Gen. Keith Kerr, an openly gay man, and furthermore letting Kerr personally appear to speak to the candidates."
At the risk of appearing ignorant, why was this a "huge mistake?" Was it not a valid question, even for Republican candidates? Did he present himself falsely as a Republican?
Even if the same thing were to happen on FOX with a Democratic debate, I would like to think that the candidates would address the question of a partisan critic on its merits or lack thereof.
Why was this a mistake, and why did CNN apologize?
Freedom Ain't Dumb wrote on November 29, 2007 5:40 PM:Actually, Christ repeatedly made the point during His ministry that he was not concerned about earthly matters, except insofar as they affect the state of men's souls. Although, I think it's safe to say that He would oppose the death penalty but His opposition would be based primarily upon the damage it does to the executioner's soul.
Incidentally, the one instance in which His political views were solicited, He chose instead to change the subject ("Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's")
Cheshire111,
No offense if you are a person of faith, but seems to me like saying one is not "concerned with earthly matters" would be the perfect vehicle for affecting political influence in Rome without being overtly political, particularly knowing that the penalty for that in Roman times was death.
Just sayin...
