Sources: Latest Senate FISA Bill Does Not Contain Telecom Immunity
This is pretty big. As some people have been speculating today, aides to Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid have confirmed to me that the version of the FISA bill that was just reported out of the Judiciary Committee does not -- repeat, does not -- contain retroactive immunity for the telecom companies.
And a source close to Reid says that this is "most likely" the version that the Majority Leader will file a motion to proceed on. The aide declined to comment when this might happen, however, saying that it could happen next month.
All in all, it looks like a big victory for opponents of telecom immunity.
Late Update: Here's a bit more detail on what happened on the Judiciary Committee today. Sources say Senator Russ Feingold offered an amendment that would have stripped telecom immunity from the bill, but it was defeated. Then Senator Arlen Specter, the ranking GOPer on the committee, offered a "compromise" amendment saying that in these lawsuits the Federal government, and not the telecoms, would be the defendants.
But because of a procedural difficulty Specter's amendment wasn't voted on -- and Senator Patrick Leahy, the chair of the committee, essentially went around Specter's amendment and moved to have a vote to report the bill out of committee without any telecom immunity in it. That passed along strictly party lines. And that's where we are.
Comments (47)
Anonymous wrote on November 15, 2007 6:17 PM:Does this mean Dodd has to return the money and netroots love he earned for his conditional hold and double-conditional filibuster?
Anonymous wrote on November 15, 2007 6:28 PM:Good work, all involved.
bobh wrote on November 15, 2007 6:31 PM:no. peeps that do the right thing get to keep the love and cash.
WI Resident wrote on November 15, 2007 6:41 PM:Thanks, Russ, for your part! Thanks all.
Carl Nyberg wrote on November 15, 2007 6:47 PM:Does this mean Feinstein flip-flopped in the right direction?
Tross wrote on November 15, 2007 6:47 PM:Dodd gets to keep the cash b/c he was a leader in the fight against immunity.
along wrote on November 15, 2007 6:48 PM:I just don't see how that could be true.
Feingold's amendment to strip Title II and therefore immunity from the bill as written failed.
Title II was then still there. Unless it was specifically stripped in the final vote you mention, which is highly improbable, given the fate of Feingold's amendment, Title II must still be there, and they're leaving it to either a conference committee or the full Senate to resolve the issue. That's what this AP article implies, that the Judiciary Committee "punted" on the issue:
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hJKgeE0Z-SivATjok-utYBdh9wDwD8SUD33G0
Yeah, did DiFi land butter side up?
dewey_m wrote on November 15, 2007 7:07 PM:Nice bait and switch on the TPM / Circuit City link team. Crude but effective.
bob wrote on November 15, 2007 7:07 PM:Jim Lehrer just said the SJC bill DID NOT include teleco immunity. (7:06 ET)
Marco wrote on November 15, 2007 7:10 PM:As Harvey Keitel said in Pulp Fiction " let's not start sucking each other's dicks just yet". This is far from over and our Democrat friends in the Senate have disappointed us many times in the past.
goodgirlroxie wrote on November 15, 2007 7:12 PM:Will we ever learn what role DiFi played in this?
bob wrote on November 15, 2007 7:14 PM:Marco wrote on November 15, 2007 7:10 PM:
"...Democrat friends in the Senate have disappointed us many times in the past."
Amen-but at least we've won one battle. It could be an omen.
Unka Willbur wrote on November 15, 2007 7:24 PM:Hip-Hip-Hooray! This battle is won soldiers, but the hard-slog to the finish remains!
No Immunity I definitely like the sound of those two words.
VictorLaszlo wrote on November 15, 2007 7:25 PM:"dewey_m wrote on November 15, 2007 7:07 PM:
Nice bait and switch on the TPM / Circuit City link team. Crude but effective."
Um... You do know that firedoglake.com is a political blog, and it has nothing to do with Circuit City's firedog service, right?
No doubt the maneuvering here will give parlimentarians a lot to talk about.
It sounds like DiFi got to both (1) vote AGAINST the "strip immunity out of the bill" amendmant (like she said she would) and then (2) vote FOR sending the bill out of committee without any of the immunity language. So she got to keep her word AND still do the right thing.
If that was an intentional bit of rule playing on Leahy's part then kudos to him.
I wonder if all the screaming at her over the last few days might have actually had an impact?
Bribes wrote on November 15, 2007 7:27 PM:Marco wrote,
...Democrat friends in the Senate...
From the usage of the term "Democrat" and the disparaging remarks, I am half inclined to consider Marco a concern troll.
If telecom immunity really is out, then this is a victory. Just look back at how this was considered a no-brainer by the powers that be.
Also, Senator Diane Feinstein, in a vote "on party lines," voted with the Dems.
lambert strether wrote on November 15, 2007 7:30 PM:Procedural junkies are clamoring to know:
What was the procedural difficulty, and how did Leahy come out of it smelling like a rose?
EH wrote on November 15, 2007 7:38 PM:I wonder if all the screaming at her over the last few days might have actually had an impact?
It didn't hurt.
electricphoto wrote on November 15, 2007 7:41 PM:Where is discussion of the question of how retroactive immunity doesn't violate the constitutional ban against "ex post facto Laws"...
Not that violating their oath of office to protect and preserve the Constitution of the United Sates would ever be an issue of discussion... certainly not news worthy anyway...
Naw, we don't want to consider constitutional issues, after all, that Habeus Corpus thing... we can't raise that issue, that might be considered a matter of law... lets talk about, say Clinton or imigrants, or maybe healthcare....
Watch this get slipped back in.
IT IS THE LAWSUITS THAT ALLOW DISCOVERY THAT THREATEN BUSH - THAT IS WHY KEY DEMOCRATS WILL BE PUSHED TO THE EDGE TO GET IT BACK IN...!
And the Constitution? That's so 1990.... GO HELP US!!!
tbhull wrote on November 15, 2007 7:41 PM:veto on the way? Will the voting public view BushCo's veto of this as offensive?
brian wrote on November 15, 2007 7:48 PM:
Good Question : is retroactive immunity constitutional ?
Is such a law legal ?
Sean Eric Fagan wrote on November 15, 2007 7:50 PM:electricphoto, you need to do more research on how ex post facto is applied: something that makes an action not a crime is allowed, but something that would retroactively turn an action into a crime is not allowed.
brian wrote on November 15, 2007 7:51 PM:
US Constitution, Article 1 section 9 - direct quote :
No bill of attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.
Sean Eric Fagan wrote on November 15, 2007 7:51 PM:Yes, retroactive immunity is constitutional -- ex post facto only applies to making something a crime, not to making it not a crime.
A couple seconds googling makes this easy to find.
Sean Eric Fagan wrote on November 15, 2007 7:52 PM:Quoting from http://www.usconstitution.net/glossary.html#EXPOST
In U.S. Constitutional Law, the definition of what is ex post facto is more limited. The first definition of what exactly constitutes an ex post facto law is found in Calder v Bull (3 US 386 [1798]), in the opinion of Justice Chase:brian wrote on November 15, 2007 7:53 PM:1st. Every law that makes an action done before the passing of the law, and which was innocent when done, criminal; and punishes such action. 2d. Every law that aggravates a crime, or makes it greater than it was, when committed. 3d. Every law that changes the punishment, and inflicts a greater punishment, than the law annexed to the crime, when committed. 4th. Every law that alters the legal rules of evidence, and receives less, or different, testimony, than the law required at the time of the commission of the offense, in order to convict the offender.
Sean - can you please post a link about retroactive immunity not being an ex post facto law ?
Thanks !
Anonymous wrote on November 15, 2007 7:59 PM:Also, Senator Diane Feinstein, in a vote "on party lines," voted with the Dems.
This may have been Leahy's coup... he used a procedural vote to strip out Title II, and these kinds of procedural votes are almost always done on party lines. Its one thing for DiFi to disagree with the Chairman on the contents of the bill -- going against the Chair from your own party on a procedural issue is an entirely different matter....
DallasNE wrote on November 15, 2007 8:06 PM:This has been an interesting day in Congress. Both the House and Senate are reporting out FISA bill without retroactive immunity for Telecom companies.
The Senate also dug in its heals on Iraq spending tied to a withdrawal schedule. The have the majority to pass this type of bill but not the super majority. It sounds like the Senate finally has the backbone to let the Republicans shut down the Senate with a filabuster as long as they damn please. My guess is that they will first do the other critical spending bills then dare the Republicans to shut down the Senate for weeks, if it should come to that. Well, about time!
I don't know where this backbone has come from but it is long, long overdue. Let's hope they stick to their guns.
Chas wrote on November 15, 2007 8:08 PM:The final act will have Telecom immunity. The Dems are cave-ins every time it really counts. As usual, they will not disappoint their corporate masters, even while trying to convince their base that they are TRYING to do the right thing.... a big sad farce.
samg wrote on November 15, 2007 8:26 PM:what happened to that shit feinstein. did she finally fail to vote for telecom immunity that she said she favored.
surely there will be another vote in which she can vote for it. or did all the criticism of this silly old woman finally begin to take hold and force her to cast a sensible vote for the first time in a while?
samg: perhaps Leahy's trick was to allow Feinstein to back down without breaking her word. There's a movement in the California party to censure her for all of her recent DINO/Bushite votes; while the party brass will block it, enough have signed on to embarrass her. Perhaps she realizes that she's gone too far.
Telecom immunity will most certainly be offered as an amendment to the bill. But now that the provision has been stripped from the bill, the amendment will be subject to filibuster. Dodd has promised to filibuster any such amendment that comes up. Breaking his filibuster will require 60 votes.
As long as Dodd hangs tough, those provisions will not get passed.
chainy wrote on November 15, 2007 8:50 PM:We'll take it. Nice to see a little justice upheld now and then to remind us this is still American.
Tom wrote on November 15, 2007 8:52 PM:I'm surprised that Leahy found the wherewithal to outplay the Republicans procedurally. I too want to know how this happened. He's never shown this kind of shrewdness before, and I've been inclined lately to write him off.
As I see it, though, this really isn't much of a victory. As far as what happens nexts, we can pretty much gaurantee that the Dems will botch this one once on the floor. The Reps will filibuster, the Dems will cry foul, and they will fail to muster the votes.
The kick in the gut will be when, again, news sources insist that the Democratic leadership failed to the work of Congress. So it goes.
Richard L. Adlof wrote on November 15, 2007 9:18 PM:Don't count chickens before the hatching . . .
Two FISA bills w/o retroactive immunity could come outta reconciliation with it . . . The last Congress proved that . . .
Plus the Chimp-in-Charge could veto and Congress could cave during the re-do . . .
I will be waiting 'til February 2009 . . .
SocraticGadfly wrote on November 15, 2007 10:06 PM:50 bucks says telco immunity is added back when Judiciary huddles with Intelligence to reconcile bills. (And, probably sometime between Thanksgiving and Christmas, in the hope it draws less notice.)
bob wrote on November 15, 2007 10:13 PM:Congress could well decide to run a feint on us and push this through by trickery. However, there is no way this is anything but a good sign. They know we’re paying attention, now, and it will take a lot of courage for them to knife us while we’re watching.
We need to keep watching. This could well be a turning point in the Bush reign of terror.
votenic wrote on November 15, 2007 10:15 PM:2008 Presidential Candidate Weekly Poll
Results Posted Tuesday At Midnight.
melior wrote on November 15, 2007 10:54 PM:Senator Leahy comes through this time!
I expect to see a lot of troll apologies to him right here in these comments if he succeeds.
Anonymous wrote on November 16, 2007 9:49 AM:Next up: Bush vetoes it and the Dems cave. And the wheels on the bus go round and round...
phil wrote on November 16, 2007 10:24 AM:River Bandito-"Telecom immunity will most certainly be offered as an amendment to the bill."
That's true, but if I'm not mistaken, and Dodd actually does filibuster, it will take 60 votes to end it and thereby effectively kill the amendment....
If Congress doesn't give immunity, I believe it is likely that President Bush will try to add it to the bill with a Signing Statement.
carrie wrote on November 17, 2007 2:41 PM:This doesn't sound right. Leahy just stripped the immunity provision all by himself?
Merg wrote on November 19, 2007 9:48 PM:Check out the Huffington Post for the details of the fight to censure Feinstein in the CA Democratic Party, Rules Committee. It got nasty
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